Special Test For Really Smart People
- Thread starter WESHOOT2
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sricciardelli
New member
Next to Capstick, Keith was probably one of the biggest BS-ers in the gun world.....
Good Old Elmer.....
Most thought him either a noble pioneer or completely full of processed bull food.
He was, in fact, a hunter and guide. He hunted and killed game animals pretty much all his life.
He was, in fact, the force behind both the .357 and .44 Magnums. He also admitted blowing out the cylinder and topstrap of several revolvers in his research.
He survived on his own terms for some 84 or 85 years. When we lost him, we lost one of the old wise ones.
And yes, he did in fact shoot a mule deer at 625 yards. With a 4 inch Model 29.
Most thought him either a noble pioneer or completely full of processed bull food.
He was, in fact, a hunter and guide. He hunted and killed game animals pretty much all his life.
He was, in fact, the force behind both the .357 and .44 Magnums. He also admitted blowing out the cylinder and topstrap of several revolvers in his research.
He survived on his own terms for some 84 or 85 years. When we lost him, we lost one of the old wise ones.
And yes, he did in fact shoot a mule deer at 625 yards. With a 4 inch Model 29.
Old Elmer was a first rate story teller. Having read just about all his published books, I've found him far more entertaining than Capstick and a much quicker read than O'Connor, Jack always wrote like he was lecturing his college classes. And Capstick, well, I hate to say it but Cheddar comes to mind.
Say what you want about Elmer most of his so called BS was true. I've read reports of people who new Elmer and went out shooting with him and most of his exploits were right on the money, one fellow described his shooing as almost mystical. Opinionated? You bet. Bull headed? Absolutely. But my absolute favorite gun writer. Even though he is completely offbase about the .270 Win. I do beleive its a little better than a "damn adequate Coyote round."
Say what you want about Elmer most of his so called BS was true. I've read reports of people who new Elmer and went out shooting with him and most of his exploits were right on the money, one fellow described his shooing as almost mystical. Opinionated? You bet. Bull headed? Absolutely. But my absolute favorite gun writer. Even though he is completely offbase about the .270 Win. I do beleive its a little better than a "damn adequate Coyote round."
Elmer Keith
I can't say I actually met Elmer but I did speak with him on the phone several times. I found him to be right on the money. He probably was one of the last true experimenters whose experiments became standards. Cast bullet shooters have him to thank for most of today's popular bullets. RIP Elmer! Quantrill
I can't say I actually met Elmer but I did speak with him on the phone several times. I found him to be right on the money. He probably was one of the last true experimenters whose experiments became standards. Cast bullet shooters have him to thank for most of today's popular bullets. RIP Elmer! Quantrill
Edward429451
Moderator
AAhhh, good ol' Elmer, my cast bullet hero. He did indeed paste a Mulie at 625 and it penetrated both sides IIRC. Said he got better penetration at long range with heavy 44's, than with some rifle cartridges. (Bullet weight)
He's the 2400 poster child. Me too. RIP Elmer (2400) Keith!
He's the 2400 poster child. Me too. RIP Elmer (2400) Keith!
MY PLEASURE
A recent discussion with a poster here reminded me of what kind of experimenter Keith was. He blew up guns from mixing one or more powders, one on top of the other: a "duplex" load.
That help?
Some have even made triplex loads..........but I managed to blow up a Redhawk the old-fashioned way; too much of one!
A recent discussion with a poster here reminded me of what kind of experimenter Keith was. He blew up guns from mixing one or more powders, one on top of the other: a "duplex" load.
That help?
Some have even made triplex loads..........but I managed to blow up a Redhawk the old-fashioned way; too much of one!
Ben Shepherd
New member
Dntorbert, the duplex comment refers to loading 2 different powders in the same cartrige. I.E., some black powder shooters put a small amount of unique under the black during cold weather shooting for more reliable ignition.
Some, including Kieth were using 2 powders to get more boom out of a load. (Sort of like a multistage rocket motor)
The "original" 454 casull load was a triplex.
Personally, I'll leave that stuff to others, I like all my fingers.
Some, including Kieth were using 2 powders to get more boom out of a load. (Sort of like a multistage rocket motor)
The "original" 454 casull load was a triplex.
Personally, I'll leave that stuff to others, I like all my fingers.
Today, usually "duplex" means a load with two powders, arranged in layers. I also think the Army experimented with a "double" bullet in 7.62 NATO which they called duplex. Now, my memory may be playing tricks on me, but for some reason I associate Keith's use of the term to describe the use of a tube inside the case to carry the flash to the front of the powder charge. When testing .50 caliber BMG rounds with this, he got something like 202 ft/sec more velocity with normal pressure. Unfortunately, if fired in an oversize chamber, pressure "spiked."
Maybe I'm confusing that article with another I read about the same time...which must be at least a quarter century ago. Memory must be going . . .
Maybe I'm confusing that article with another I read about the same time...which must be at least a quarter century ago. Memory must be going . . .
Elmer Keith is a hero of mine. Reading, "Hell, I Was There", I found that I agreed with much of his way of thinking (use enough gun, rather than try to make a smaller caliber do something it isn't suited for, even though it may be capable of it.) I'm a huge .44 Magnum fan, partly because of him. However, I am a bit more open minded to other opinions than he was.
You must realize that his strong opinions came from his actual experiences.
You must realize that his strong opinions came from his actual experiences.
Elmer Keith's "Hell I Was There" pg 177. "Birth of the Duplex" ...I became acquainted with Charlie O'Neil...." "First we necked the .30 Newton down to a .22. Then we tried it in .25. A few shots from that thing and the barrel would get so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it...." "I told Charley, We are firing the powder from the wrong end." "...if we could ignite the front end of that charge, and start the bullet up the bore with a portion of it, then the pressure that drove the bullet foreward would hold the powder back in the case until the fire came in the case and it was all consumed." ...(Charley) went home and went to work, he drilled out the flash hole in the primer pockets and then threaded them. He got some brass tube that was small enough to thread, and with a split collet wrench, screw them in from the front end of the case. We experimented with various lengths of tube, finding that a tube cut half the length of the powder chamber was about right and gave the best results." "At that time the war in Europe was going on, and it looked like we would be into it. I didn't want to give it any publicity, other than tell the results, which I did the The American Rifleman and others. The then head of the 'dope bag'....wrote a piece and said we were mixing powders, which we were not doing at all...."
There, Duplex Loads right from the source.
There, Duplex Loads right from the source.
I think we have two valid definitions of "duplex Load".
Ignition proceeding in two directions.
Ignition from somewhere towards the front of the charge. Also used in 20mm spotter cartridges and other things.
And more commonly used.....
Two powders with different burning caracteristics loaded in case and ignited conventionaly. As in a bit of bullseye next to primer to help ignite slower powder. Or a bit of smokeless under blackpowder charge.
Phill Sharpe played with mulitple powder charges in the 30s.
Sam
Ignition proceeding in two directions.
Ignition from somewhere towards the front of the charge. Also used in 20mm spotter cartridges and other things.
And more commonly used.....
Two powders with different burning caracteristics loaded in case and ignited conventionaly. As in a bit of bullseye next to primer to help ignite slower powder. Or a bit of smokeless under blackpowder charge.
Phill Sharpe played with mulitple powder charges in the 30s.
Sam
The guy I talked to heard first-hand reports of Old Elmer from his neighbors in Idaho.
Weird guy, insisted on packing his gun on his hip at all times--in the small hamlets that passed for towns way out there. IIRC, the post office shack operator was especially amused.
You had to LOOK hard to find a crime scene in those parts in those days.
True, he gave us the .44 and so forth, but he was a bit stanger and loud than most of us...
Weird guy, insisted on packing his gun on his hip at all times--in the small hamlets that passed for towns way out there. IIRC, the post office shack operator was especially amused.
You had to LOOK hard to find a crime scene in those parts in those days.
True, he gave us the .44 and so forth, but he was a bit stanger and loud than most of us...