something 1911's got right that glock has missed so far

[a7mmnut]

A small mold just big enough to make only one grip frame at a time may run well over $200,000 in the U.S. with accompanying spare tooling. I'd guess $50-60k in China. Current U.S. molding labor would run between $26-35/machine hour for production if made by a vendor-after the mold was built. That's a heckuva investment for an untested niche market for any company.
The 1911 has almost a 90 year head start on improvements and upgrades. If they had only shot as well as a Glock out of the box, maybe this thread wouldn't even be here?

-7-

 

[TRguy]

maybe that pricing for a mold is accurate, I have several injected molding businesses I write coverage for and they typically have insured their molds at $25k to $50k each. Substantial investment albeit but considerably less than the figure you mentioned.

Maybe it has to do with type of polymer as to the durability of the mold, hardness and such.

However if the mold did indeed cost that amount it would be a different set of economics for a reasonable return on investment. I think if a accessory provider like Lone Wolf can afford it and anticipate a profit, then the primary manufacturer of the product would also expect a profit given they would have their name and goodwill attached to the product for marketing.

 

[IanS]

Yes, you're right. You're sitting there at your computer and wondering why they don't "just do it"? While people at Glock actually have to deal with the actual cost, logistics and risk of the thing. Write them a letter and tell them how much smarter you are compared to their marketing research dept. Tell them how much you worry about their bottom line or profit margin. Instead of telling a bunch of people who have no sway with them.

Or maybe it has been better for Glock Inc. to allow the aftermarket to deal with grip reductions and such. And why they don't produce all those aftermarket doodads in the first place. There is no end to the way a company can diversify. Managing a company well is balancing the desire for higher profits, meeting consumer demand/expectations and limiting a companies exposure to unnecesary risk. Its easy to say "more is better". But for gun consumers nothing is as important as quality control. A reliable product. There are other companies who changed their focus and their resources trying to please everyone. Like SIG Sauer trying to produce every type of handgun to meet perceived consumer demand. But go over to SIGForum and its longest loyal fans (which I am one of) are dismayed and disillusioned by what SIG Sauer has become in terms of quality. We'd happily trade in all the P238's, P250's, SP2022's, GSR 1911's, P220ST's for the kind of P series SIG's they used to consistently manufacture. SIG Sauer used to enjoy the same kind of reputation for quality/customer service that Glock still enjoys. Not anymore.

BTW, there are rumours Glock may introduce a frame with interchangeable back straps at the next Shot Show. Rumours. Meaning there's no official confirmation. Those finger grooves were put there due to perceived consumer demand as well. No doubt there will be unintended consequences for any new changes and will no doubt make someone out there unhappy. These aren't custom guns. Never claimed to be. These are mass produced service pistols. Deal with it.

 

[Hornett]

One of the things I really like about my G22 is the UNBELIEVABLE amount of aftermarket products available.
I could customize it as much or as little as I want.
There are a dozen different triggers mods, extended magazines, longer barrels, different caliber barrels, two or 3 different safeties that can be added, grip reductions, why you can even get an aluminum or steel frame if you want to.
It doesn't necessarily come from Glock, but the mods a very available and CHEAP for the most part.

 

[porkskin]

it is a fact that in Forbes Magazine, Gaston himself said that a glock has about $75 mfg cost. They retail for around $500. Don't tell me they can't spend some money to make some money. Also, we are talking about the 2nd generation frames that they already have the mold and tech for and simply flattening the dern backstrap. Not a big deal. If it were too cost prohibitive we wouldn't have finger grooves and thumbswells of the 3rd generation, or light rail accessories.

 

[IanS]

it is a fact that in Forbes Magazine, Gaston himself said that a glock has about $75 mfg cost. They retail for around $500. Don't tell me they can't spend some money to make some money.

Nobody said they couldn't its just that we're not the ones who makes those decisions.
And even if they did how about all the people who'd be unhappy with the change?

$75 to manufacture. Oh those greedy capitalistic free market bastards. And they're too stingy to make the changes you want. Ooh, how frustrating.

I got an idea. Buy something else.

 

[porkskin]

I don't buy glock, but the mfg vs retail is only a small part. the lack of a flat back strap is the main reason. if they corrected that I would be the first to buy one. until then I will just state my opinion freely.

 

[mathman]

I have long been a fan of 1911s and I still am. That said, I recently purchased a Glock 19 because I wanted a gun that goes bang everytime I pull the trigger until it is out of ammo.

With my 1911s, I would get this about 98 to 99% of the time...with a Glock, it is much closer to 100% of the time. Do I like the Glock's looks and feel as much as some other guns? No. In fact, I like the feel and looks of Sigs much better...but I wanted a gun that was durable, reliable, rugged and, above all, simple.

The Glock delivers this for me. I don't have a love affair with my guns...they just have to work.

Like others have said: buy what you want...aparantly a lot of people want Glocks.

 

[Boats]

The detractors do not have to long worry. The USA is by far the largest handgun market on the planet and S&W with its M&P is going to eventually force Glock to respond to its increasing popularity.

In the next three to five years I can see S&W introducing the following:

A factory .22lr upper and/or full size and compact M&P22 pistols for cheaper training.
Even slimmer, single stack pistols in 9mm, .40S&W .357 Sig and .45ACP, just as they did for their all metal Gen 3 calibers.
Possibly a shrunken down .380
A remote chance of a 10mm

S&W has become the nimble one and Glock the resistant to change dinosaur. Who thought that would be the case when the boycott raged during the Clinton Administration?

 

[TMUSCLE1]

Very true Boats. I hope it happens...it's never a bad thing when more options are available for gun owners.

 

[fastbolt]

If I remember right, in my last armorer class we were told that this country accounts for 80% of Glock's business worldwide (business practices aren't exactly high on my how-to-fix-a-gun list when it comes to attention span during armorer classes, though ).

If so, then eventually Glock is going to feel the pressure from the other companies making significant inroads into the LE/Gov contract marketplace. The newest HK series, Sig's P250 and the M&P series are likely to offer attractive solutions to the disparate impact issues facing a lot of agencies nowadays.

I certainly like the grip angle and overall dimensional ranges which can be created when using the 99 and M&P series guns with their insert options.

Don't think Glock hasn't noticed, either. Why do you think the SF (and RTF) models were introduced? If the rumbles are correct, replaceable grip inserts are on the horizon for Glock. I suspect they realize they need to do something to update their models in order to remain competitive to a wide range of people/users. (A heavier slide with some more mass on their .40 guns might be an interesting change, too, but let's see how the rumors play out.)

Cheer leading and internet forum popularity contests & proselytizing notwithstanding, Glock seems to be feeling the competition in the LE/Gov market.

 

[Radionicist]

Interesting discussion.

I just traded for my first Glock, a lightly used Glock 19. I, too, have small hands, and I was worried the grip circumference would be so large that I'd find the gun hard to control.

I worried needlessly.

I'm really amazed at how well I shot the 19 the first time I took it to the range. Aimed fire was great, and double-taps were as easy as doing them with my H&K P7. In fact, I liked the 19 so much that I'm considering selling my P7 - the Glock does what it does, better.

I do agree with the OP, though, on the backstrap - the hump does lead to me aiming high when first acquiring the target. A backstrap with interchangable panels would make this pistol perfect. For now, I think I'll shoot it as is, and see how it goes.

 

[EnoughGUN]

glock/1911

Problem solved! This is an Alchemy Spectre I just picked up. I was VERY impressed with the construction it is a beautifully made weapon.

 

[45_Shooter]

Glock's heading down the same road Colt did.... one day they're going to wake up and wonder where exactly their market share went and why other manufacturers are selling loads more pistols using the exact same design.

I own Glocks and I own Colts. Both are fine weapons but time marches on, improvements are made, and if a manufacturer fails to recognize new trends in the market then they fall out of favor, usually slowly.

As I write this Detroit PD, longtime user of the Glock 22 has officially switched to M&P40 sidearms. Personally I like the G22 better, but the M&P40 is far from a bad selection, and solves some criticism of the Glock.

 

[orionengnr]

I'm sick of Glock-bashing threads just because some people are to (sic) immature to understand that there is more than enough room for all types/brands/models/calibers/etc of firearms.

Really? Take a look at how many 1911-bashing threads are intiated by (or perpetuated by) rabid Glock-o-philes.

I'll wait here until you compile the results, but I already know the answer. I've been around the block a time or two....

 

[IanS]

Really? Take a look at how many 1911-bashing threads are intiated by (or perpetuated by) rabid Glock-o-philes.

Actually people who don't shoot 1911, not just Glock users. There are just so many Glock users out there so it seems that way.

Glock's heading down the same road Colt did.... one day they're going to wake up and wonder where exactly their market share went and why other manufacturers are selling loads more pistols using the exact same design.

That's not gonna happen until Glock loses their exclusive right over their patent which is decades from now. Right now the other companies are making pistols that resemble Glocks but are substantially different (in the legal sense) from Glock's patent. S&W got into trouble with Glock with the Sigma pistol in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Sigma

The Sigma series pistols are so similar to the competing Glock pistols that Glock sued Smith & Wesson for patent infringement. The case was settled out of court in 1997, with S&W agreeing to make alterations to the Sigma design and pay an undisclosed amount to Glock.[1]

The M&P is not a Glock. The XD is not a Glock. An HK45 is not a Glock. SIG P250 is not a Glock. And vice versa. Each pistol has their own seperate history, design, and record of service. Some pistols are more proven than others. That's the plain fact.

Hey I'm glad S&W is winning over some police agencies with the M&P. I'm glad an American made handgun is making some headway. But the M&P still needs to prove itself. That's gonna take time. There's no way around it. Glock is very slow to make changes but they have shown that they can change and react to market pressures. Maybe not as fast as some would like but they do.

You know I wish gun companies didn't come out with a "new model" every year, because now people are under this illusion that "anything new is better". They're not re-inventing the wheel folks. That's why the 1911 is still relevant to this day.

 

[jgcoastie]

I'll wait here until you compile the results, but I already know the answer. I've been around the block a time or two....

Yeah, because anyone who loves the 1911 is instantly an expert...

For all the reasons offered by people who dislike/hate Glocks, there's also equally legitimate reasons for liking them, by just as many if not more people. I'm not a Glockool-aid drinker. I own two (G20SF and G22) because they work for me. They are functional, more reliable than most, they fill their intended roles perfectly, and they fit me (as does my S&W 642CT). The 1911 fits you? Great, more power to ya. Just because something works for a lot of people, doesn't mean that it works for everyone. I'm completely fine with that, as are millions of other people on both sides of the 1911 vs Glcok debate. Which isn't even a real debate, a stupid argument at best, a display of blind, retarded, ignorant foolishness at worst. (Edit: Both are perfectly fine handguns in their own right.)

BTW, I've yet to see an all-out 1911 bashing thread... However, not a week goes by that you won't see at least one Glock basher come along and stir up trouble...

 

[Dr Raoul Duke]

Well, I must be a mutant. I have lived (or died) by the 1911A1, and am still walking and talking. S&W's Model 15's and 19's saved my life 5 times as a police officer, and a little S&W Model 36 kept me alive when a intruder tried to kill me as a civilian. I now trust my life to a Glock 20, four 1911 .45 ACPs of various pedigrees, and a SA XD40 SC, as well as a whole bunch of .357 and .44 Mag revolvers. I find the handguns I rely on these days do the job that Clint Smith describes as being (and I probably misquote), "What gets me to the nearest rifle" (and it could also be "shotgun"). I think that John Moses Browning designed the perfect fighting handgun in the 1911 .45 ACP pistol, and it was improved in the 1911A1, except for the arched mainspring housing. Despite that, I have been impressed by Gaston Glock's pistol, but not in the 9mm Luger cartridge. I have friends that try to trade me away from my G20, but no fair deal! That pistol will be with me to the grave. You can't separate me from the 1911A1 .45 ACP, and the same goes for the Glock G-20 10MM Auto as well. I've become unreasonably fond of the Springfield Armory XD-40 SC after about 1200 rounds, so you probably can't argue me away from that stout little pistol as well.

Dr. Raoul Duke
Gonzo Forever

 

[rshanneck2002]

Early this summer i purchased a glock 23 after yrs of talking about them like a frickin dog. First i own several semi autos including 1911a1 and it has jammed from time to time. After about 1200 rds of various ammo im impressed with the little critter, not one jam at all with several types of ammo and it has fast become my concelled carry weapon. the only thing i changed was the guide rod to a metal one and i have heard all of these horror storys about the grip handle angle etc., i dont find this to be a problem. I have ALWAYS been a metal guy with handguns but not anymore,it is and has been one very impressive little handgun that like a timex takes alickin and keeps on tickin, its a gen 3. Like i said for the money its what i carry everyday now and i feel so far it will stay with me as a daily carry for a long,long time, makes a very good truck gun. What made me finally look at Glocks was a statement i read on here about them,its the AK of the handgun world and so far i have found this to be very true. I love my springfield 1911 also but it is far heavier for daily carry and found myself going back to my 380 for the weight factor, not now. A 40 s&w rd is a huge step up for sure from my 380. Next purchase? a Glock in 45 cal for sure.,not pretty but extremely reliable.

 

[45_Shooter]

That's not gonna happen until Glock loses their exclusive right over their patent which is decades from now. Right now the other companies are making pistols that resemble Glocks but are substantially different (in the legal sense) from Glock's patent.

I see where you're coming from in that the Glock "Safe Action" is safe from copies for a while yet. However, the M&P, XD, USP, various newer Sig offerings, etc. accomplish similar feel and function to the Glock using differing methods. As long as these companies can skirt Glock's patents, offer a similar product, and react better to market direction then I feel they will continue to gain ground.

Hey I'm glad S&W is winning over some police agencies with the M&P. I'm glad an American made handgun is making some headway. But the M&P still needs to prove itself. That's gonna take time. There's no way around it.

I've owned both Glocks and M&P's and actually feel that the Glock is a more overbuilt and durable pistol, better able to cope with abuse, and is more proven, but S&W did a great job at going for Glocks jugular. They found out what customers disliked about the Glock and addressed those issues on the M&P, while designing a pistol retaining much of the good points of the Glock, with enough durability and reliability to satisfy typical requirements of a service pistol.

The M&P has been out for awhile and although going through a couple teething issues initially (as did Glock) they are becoming pretty well sorted out at present as is reflected in some of their recent larger contracts.