Some deer just refuse to die.

[Double Naught Spy]

We waited 20 or so minutes and found the deer staring at us in the ditch just off the road, head up and alert. The heart and lungs were so soup.

Sorry, but this is an anatomical impossibility. Deer are not magical animals. They cannot survive for 20 minutes without a functioning heart and set of lungs. There had to have been at least one partially functioning lung and a functioning heart for the deer to remain conscious for that long of a period of time. Either you misidentified the damaged structures or you misidentified the extent of the damage.

 

[buck460XVR]

Sorry, but this is an anatomical impossibility. Deer are not magical animals. They cannot survive for 20 minutes without a functioning heart and set of lungs. There had to have been at least one partially functioning lung and a functioning heart for the deer to remain conscious for that long of a period of time. Either you misidentified the damaged structures or you misidentified the extent of the damage.

^^^I hafta agree. Or....could be what felt like 20 minutes and what appeared to be an alert deer could have been misjudged.

I love it when friends tell me about this big buck they "double lunged" and then trailed it for a half mile before loosing blood. Had to be bullet failure of course.

As DNS said, deer are not magical. But, some do dye harder than others. For example, a mature 300# buck in good health, will go farther when shot thru the boiler room than his 7 month old nubbin' son. Any deer with adrenaline already in his blood will travel farther when mortally wounded, than if it was totally relaxed and surprised when shot. Still, the difference is only a matter of a few yards, not anything more.

Shot a dandy 10 pointer this fall with my bow. Couldn't have asked for a better hit. Put a X thru the heart and both lungs. Buck was completely relaxed when hit and the deer took three, maybe four bounds from where he was hit. Made it maybe 20 yards. He then fell, got back up, fell again and tumbled down the hill. I immediately texted my oldest son "BBD!". The buck laid there for what seemed forever with his head up and looking around. Musta laid his head down half a dozen times and I figured he was done......only for him to lift, or attempt to lift his head again. Because he seemed so alive I stayed still in the stand for fear of spooking him and him taking off. I didn't even take my eyes off him or take the backup arrow off the rest until I could see no movement at all, this included watching his chest for movement with my binoculars(deer was only about 30 yards away). This all seemed like 20 minutes or more to me. Got down, went up to the buck, and looked him over. Impressed at the lack of ground shrinkage, I pulled him into a level position where I could get a good pic of his ornaments and my bow together. I then texted my son again with the pic. Had anyone asked me, I would have told them all this took a good half an hour or so. According to my phone, those two texts were but 12 minutes apart.........

Once I got up to him, dressed him out and saw the damage done, I realized after he fell the first time, there was little or no awareness of what was happening around him. I knew from the start I could never mount the deer, after watching the life go outta those eyes and the valiant attempt he made to stay alert. Maybe a European mount......

 

[Roadkill2228]

People may indeed exaggerate how much damage an animal sustained or how long it lived... but I have seen examples myself that I wouldn’t easily believe had I not observed first hand. I think there’s at least as much if not more exaggeration out there about “drt” kills. I find myself highly skeptical of hunters claiming that about everything they shoot just drops in it’s tracks. Such widely circulated ego-stoking B.S. is why we see people even in this thread surprised at double lung shot deer covering 100 yards or more. That is nothing remarkable. They’re fast. They’re brain isn’t dead just yet. Muscles can exert their greatest forces via anaerobic means for a short intense burst. My buck this year was double lunged with a .300 wm with 180 nosler b-tips. Massive exit, so much blood. Ran in a drunken manner about 40-50 yards, stopped, and fell over stone dead. To me this is perfect performance. To those who ascribe magic killing power to anything that ends in “magnum” or has a polymer tip, this might have been upsetting. More often than not they run. Even with shoulders broke. In my experience they run even further with heart hits than they do with lung hits. I’m not that old but I’ve seen enough and listened to others enough to know that it’s foolish to assume that making a good shot guarantees short or no tracking. That is why if I’ve made a hit and the animal is still in view and not dead, I keep shooting. Some have told me this is senseless meat wasting. When I was 17 I made this assumption. Once. A lost animal that certainly did die of its injury but not before making it to the river left a much sicker feeling in my stomach than a few pounds of bloodshot meat (if that) on a recovered animal dispatched as quickly and humanely as possible.

 

[reynolds357]

. To those who ascribe magic killing power to anything that ends in “magnum” or has a polymer tip, this might have been upsetting.

Where a "magnum" shines is when big bones are hit. They also shine at distance.

 

[Wyosmith]

"Where a "magnum" shines is when big bones are hit."
True in the best cases, but it's also it weakest point.

The bullet has to be up to the task. As an example a bullet that works quite well breaking big bones from an 8MM Mauser can become nothing but a small charge of snake shot when it hits the same bone after it's been fired from an 8MM Rem Mag or a 325 Winchester short mag.

And yet a cast 400 grain 45-70 breaks elk shoulders (both of them) and exits the animal nearly every time, and will shoot clear through one from butt to neck and exit.

As a guide I have seen this more times then I can count. A bullet that works very well in a 7MM Mauser just breaking into "metal sand" when fired from a 7MM Mag.

When I was guiding in the Selway I saw far too many terrible bullet failures with 7MM and 300 mags used by hunters to kill game at 300 yards and farther with good success, who came for an elk hunt and got a 20-30 yard shot. BAD NEWS!

I can assure you from experience that a 30-06 with a 200 grain or 220 grain Partition would out penetrate and usually out kill a 300 Weatherby Mag with the factory 180 grain bullet that were loaded in the 70 and 80s. In fact the penetration of a 220 grain 30-06 was about 2X to3X better then the factory 300 Weatherby. (yes, that correct and not a miswritten line. That is 200% to 300%, so we are clear as to what I just wrote)
That doesn't mean the 300 Weather is not as good (maybe even better) for elk then a 30-06.

It means a faster round needs a tougher bullet. That's all.

 

[reynolds357]

"Where a "magnum" shines is when big bones are hit."
True in the best cases, but it's also it weakest point.

The bullet has to be up to the task. As an example a bullet that works quite well breaking big bones from an 8MM Mauser can become nothing but a small charge of snake shot when it hits the same bone after it's been fired from an 8MM Rem Mag or a 325 Winchester short mag.

And yet a cast 400 grain 45-70 breaks elk shoulders (both of them) and exits the animal nearly every time, and will shoot clear through one from butt to neck and exit.

As a guide I have seen this more times then I can count. A bullet that works very well in a 7MM Mauser just breaking into "metal sand" when fired from a 7MM Mag.

When I was guiding in the Selway I saw far too many terrible bullet failures with 7MM and 300 mags used by hunters to kill game at 300 yards and farther with good success, who came for an elk hunt and got a 20-30 yard shot. BAD NEWS!

I can assure you from experience that a 30-06 with a 200 grain or 220 grain Partition would out penetrate and usually out kill a 300 Weatherby Mag with the factory 180 grain bullet that were loaded in the 70 and 80s. In fact the penetration of a 220 grain 30-06 was about 2X to3X better then the factory 300 Weatherby. (yes, that correct and not a miswritten line. That is 200% to 300%, so we are clear as to what I just wrote)
That doesn't mean the 300 Weather is not as good (maybe even better) for elk then a 30-06.

It means a faster round needs a tougher bullet. That's all.

I fully agree.In my mind It goes without saying proper bullet selection is essential. I now exclusively use Tsx and GMX on medium and large game. With those bullets, the faster you push them, the better. (Assuming you don't push them past 5500)
Granted, A 45-70 will break bone and exit. A 338 Lapua spitting a Barnes will explode bones and push the bone fragments through the wound channel causing a mess of epic proportions.
P.S. I still use the 87 Bonded Norma in the 257 Roy. It's so tough, it may as well be a Barnes. It consistently blows through AR500 at 200 yards.

 

[Wyosmith]

Yup, the expanding solids thrive on velocity.

I have seen very good effects from them down to about 2400 FPS impact velocity, and "good enough" down to about 2000 FPS.

Below 2000 impact speed they don't open up much and sometimes not at all. I have seen a few good kills with low speed hits when the points will bend some, and turn the bullet sideways. That creates a good effect, but somethings they wound channel will veer off sharply when they do that, so it can work for you or against you. Kind of a case of "luck of the draw"

When I hunt with rifles that are not super fast, or I anticipate possible shots at ranges where my bullets can be going less then 2100 FPS at impact I usually go with lead core bullets and the best of the bunch I have used (so far) are the Nosler Partitions and various bonded core bullets They do hot hold together as well as GMX or TSX bullets at real high speeds, but they hold well enough to give me exits most times.

The hits at 2000 and lower are where they do better.

But I could not agree more about the Solid Expanding bullets used in super high velocity mags. That's a match made in hunters heaven. In modern rifles we have not come up with a round yet that can drive them too fast.

 

[Drm50]

I've shot a lot of deer. I like the shot and don't care about trophies. I'm the tag filler and
damage permit shooter. When shooting damage permits I use a 270 with 110gr bullets. I
shoot from a rest and shots are 200yds or less. I take only head shots and have yet have one run. The farthest I ever shot a deer while actually deer hunting was 250yds with a 308
130gr Speer HP, head on it never new what hit it. The bulk of my deer are shot at less than
100yds in heavy cover and they are on the run. Over half these were shot with slugs in Ohio
and when they are pumping adrenalin they can run a long ways with a fatal hit. The ones
you catch that aren't spooked seem like they give up the ghost easily. A big gun doesn't make up for a bad shot. The thing is the deer will die from that bad shot. I have seen deer
still alive from being gut shot the day before. They can't get back on their feet but will try.
Small game hunting on public hunting areas after deer season I have come across a lot of
deer that died after running off from where they were hit. Guys didn't know they hit or were
to lazy to track it.

 

[Hawg]

when they are pumping adrenalin they can run a long ways with a fatal hit. The ones
you catch that aren't spooked seem like they give up the ghost easily

This is true and if they are alert and ready to run they will run when shot. I make heart/lung shots on calm deer. Deer meat infused with adrenalin tastes nasty. A 30-06 with 165 grain BTBT almost always leaves a calm deer DRT without much meat damage. When they do move after being shot they walk a few yards and fall over. Seldom does one run. They may try to get up for a couple of minutes after being shot but can't do it.