So... you just got your first "tacti-cool" shotgun huh?

Death from Afar

New member
Wow, that's just incredible, going back to re read that one, that just seems,must be a typo? Going to hafta run a spread sheet on that, seems like one rabbit kill every minute or something. So, who's suffering the most, the rabbits or your shoulder? LOL

400 rabbits in one night? Quite common really, here, there is no limit and rabbits are a huge pest. The most I have ever shot in one night ( with 5 other guys) is about 1200.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_rural_story_skin/481672

( You will see the winning team shot 1800 rabbits in 24 hours) (!!)
 

Chuckusaret

Moderator
Recoil

I have Mossberg 500 12 gauge 20" 7+1 for HD. I don't believe I will be worring about recoil if my home was ever to be invaded. There is an opportunity cost for everything.
 

inSight-NEO

New member
I have a few thoughts concerning things such as "imbalance" due to various accessories, the need for a sling, etc.

Within typical HD ranges, is "balance" really going to make much of a difference (unless you have 5 lbs. worth of crap hanging off the gun)? Also, I agree that a good sling is worthwhile (I have an Urban ERT 1 pt/2 pt setup...am currently using a 1 pt configuration) when it comes to enhancing the shotguns mobility, but would someone really feel inclined to "sling up" their shotty when BG's are invading the home? This would more than likely just get in the way. Now, if you are LE and this is a planned assault, this would be a different matter entirely.

I could go on an on..but Im just too tired.

Below is my current HD shotty (primarily a "barricade" weapon). It has several "tacticool" accessories and every single one of them serves a practical/useful purpose. And yes, I have taken the time to learn how to implement each and every one of them. And no, not one of them has thrown off the weapons "balance" to any negative degree. Besides, shotguns are not necessarily "nimble" to begin with!

Now, would I necessarily have an opportunity or need for using every accessory, given an HD situation? Probably not. But, Id rather have the extended capability these things offer (if needed) than to end up regretting their absence when the **** hits the fan. Hindsight, in this situation, could leave you stretcher-bound or worse.....

B_01.jpg


Wifes new camera + my pre-occupation with other matters = poor pic.
 
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nemoaz

Moderator
I have a few thoughts concerning things such as "imbalance" due to various accessories, the need for a sling, etc.
...
Within typical HD ranges, is "balance" really going to make much of a difference (unless you have 5 lbs. worth of crap hanging off the gun)? Also, I agree that a good sling is worthwhile (I have an Urban ERT 1 pt/2 pt setup...am currently using a 1 pt configuration) when it comes to enhancing the shotguns mobility, but would someone really feel inclined to "sling up" their shotty when BG's are invading the home?
Ever tried to open a closer/bathroom/bedroom door with a shotgun in your hand? Balance does matter then. I DON"T have a sling on my guns at home, but it is a challenge to do certain things with the ole blunderbuss in your hand.
Below is my current HD shotty (primarily a "barricade" weapon). \.
Nice.
 

Doggieman

New member
I'd like to chime in with support of the pistol-grip-only (cruiser) shotgun.

Years ago I was totally opposed to them... until I actually tried one.

You have to fire it NOT from hip-level but from belly level. Your right elbow (assuming you're firing right handed) should be bent at 90-100 degrees and your wrist should be as straight as possible. The inside of your right arm is pressed tight against the side of your belly. You lean forward while firing, keeping your right arm as unmoving as possible.

No, you're not going to shoot skeet with this configuration, but you're going to sweep a room very well. And, quite honestly, if you're sweeping a room with a shotgun that has a standard stock, you're not going to have it up to your cheek anyway, because the damn thing is going to be too long, too unwieldy and too easily snatched by a guy (or girl!) hiding around the corner.

If you have a standard stock and you're in a tough situation, you're going to be holding the stock UNDER your armpit anyway. To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you. Might as well just use a pistol grip.

TRY the pistol grip, it's incredibly useful at short distances when done right. It's not 'tacti-cool', it's quite useful.
 

inSight-NEO

New member
Ever tried to open a closer/bathroom/bedroom door with a shotgun in your hand? Balance does matter then. I DON"T have a sling on my guns at home, but it is a challenge to do certain things with the ole blunderbuss in your hand.

Heh..I cant say that I have. Honestly, I think the pistol grip stock on my SNT might somehow offset any "imbalance" issues due to the added weight of the sidesaddle and light. Maybe this is because the grip angle is quite different vs what would be necessary with a "standard" stock. What I like about the PG stock is that it seems to make one-handed manipulation seem much more "natural" vs a standard configuration...particularly when add-ons are present.


To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you.

Best thing here is to not let them get that close in the first place!!;) However, from what Ive "heard", if someone tries to grab the end of the barrel and/or actually succeeds in doing so, simply squat down (thus changing the angle) and proceed to umm...remove him/her from it in an effective manner. Another thing to consider (when speaking of sg's with a stock) is to just keep the barrel angled down vs straight ahead, until you are needing to use it (in an HD situation). It seems like this would make it just a bit harder for someone to effectively grab hold of the barrel.
 
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Sarge

New member
Guess I'm behind the times...I still like a plain, bead-sighted 590 or 870. About the most useful accessory I can imagine for either would be a butt-cuff stuffed full of Super-X slugs.
 

nemoaz

Moderator
I'd like to chime in with support of the pistol-grip-only (cruiser) shotgun.

Years ago I was totally opposed to them... until I actually tried one.

I have tried them. The only time they are useful is if you are using the weapon solely for breaching purposes.

If you have a standard stock and you're in a tough situation, you're going to be holding the stock UNDER your armpit anyway. To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you.
Tough situation? I suspect you mean tight quarters and yes you would have it tucked in the "underarm assault position" for that. As you note, the stock is against your hip or higher under your arm so you really have no penalty in maneuverability or only an inch or two penalty I guess depending on how thick you are or whether you have a compact buttstock.

Might as well just use a pistol grip. [/guote]What kind of logic is that? There really is no penalty in maneuverability with a buttstocked shotgun (because the butt will be under my armpit in tightquarters) and I get the added benefit of being able to shoulder the weapon for a more effective acquisition of the target.

Let me say that additionally with the shotgun in the underarm assault position with the gun firmly locked in, the shotgun is readily controllable as part of the recoil is absorbed by the chest/abdomen and as the buttstock keeps the weapon from moving. With a PGO, felt recoil is more (though certainly not uncontrollable) but there is no easy way to lock the weapon into position and follow up shots take much more time.

For those that think shotguns are just like in the movies, they aren't. You can't just point it in the general direction, pull the trigger and see the guy fall. At close range, the spread of the shot is hardly larger than the bore. You may hit it shooting from the hip with a PGO gun, but your chances are exponentially better by shouldering it. (It doesn't really matter whether we are talking about handguns, shotguns or rifles for that last point.) You must also still hit an important part of the bad guy with that small pattern. Just like with handguns or rifles, the only sure way of immediately incapacitating that bad guy who is threatening you or a loved one is by hitting the central nervous system. Lung shots often result in several minutes before the bad guy is incapacitated. Even destroying the heart or major blood vessels allows the determined bad guy to have at least 15 seconds to harm you or yours. Shoulder the weapon if you want to have decent odds of stopping the bad guy.

TRY the pistol grip, it's incredibly useful at short distances when done right. It's not 'tacti-cool', it's quite useful.
Young man, I have owned PGO shotguns and have played around with them extensively. I have pistol grips in my crates of crap right now. I don't have a use for one on my HD shotgun and I wouldn't recommend that any friend or family get one either.

It should be a clue that no prominent firearms instructor or author recommends a PGO shotgun and no military or no LE agency issues a PGO shotgun (for anything except breaching).
 
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Creeper

New member
When I started this thread, I had no idea it would develop "a life of it's own" and morph into the current, fun filled conversations.

I've owned pistol grip shotguns... as in pistol grip only. Other than the obvious concealment value or a slight advantage when crawling in a tight cave or tunnel, I find them far less functional than a stocked shotgun.
If you said "Here Creeper, go clear this three story building... which shotgun would you like?" and my choices were identical shotguns save for the stock/grip variable... I'd go for the gun with a buttstock every time.

For most... maybe 99.7% or so in reality, comments on the pluses and minuses of shotgun variations are academic and theoretical.
Until you've been in a gunfight with a shotgun in close quarters (or at least trained extensively in shotgun CQC), what you think would be a good idea and what is a good idea can be two entirely different ideas.
Sometimes, even looking toward police or military as points of practical reference can be somewhat invalid, as their needs are unique to their situation, training and even budget.

I've always been a guy who believes a reasonably light, full stock gun (with or without PG) with a decent mag capacity, good sights, a sling and a solidly mounted and bright light with a instant on/off control... is all just about anyone would ever need in a civilian, home defense environment.

What it comes right down to is practice and training. A guy (like Sarge for example) who runs a few boxes a month thru his funky old Ithaca M37 riot gun, and has for the past 20 years is the guy I want on my six.
The guy with a shiny safe queen Benelli M4 camo, festooned with another grand worth of farkles, who's not run a full box thru it in six months... hell, I'd be afraid he'd shoot me in the ass during a "tactical reload". :rolleyes:

Moving right along....
C
 

inSight-NEO

New member
I've always been a guy who believes a reasonably light, full stock gun (with or without PG) with a decent mag capacity, good sights, a sling and a solidly mounted and bright light with a instant on/off control... is all just about anyone would ever need in a civilian, home defense environment.

I agree as this is basically what I have, the sidesaddle notwithstanding. Personally, Ive been debating the "need" for this sidesaddle (see pic in one of my earlier posts). But, given its relatively unobtrusive weight, Im thinking that I just might rather have it and not need it than to not have it and really need it!

Either way, as has been mentioned before, all the goods amount to squat without useful practice. Even with this, you just never know.....
 

Creeper

New member
I've got a Mesa Tactical 6 shell carrier/1913 rail for my Benelli M2... that I've yet to install.
I bought it on a whim, then sent it back to Mesa when I found out they were having screw and counterbore issues with the countersink screws they were using at the time.
They are in the process of changing over to a Benelli style, custom screw with a flat counterbore... to correct the occasional thread engagement issues they were having in the past.

When I get the carrier back, I'll still be undecided on installing it... I can see advantages and disadvantages to it. Also, I'm left handed, so the "manual of arms" for using the carrier effectively is a bit wonky for me.

From my perspective, and depending on a guns balance value, I think receiver carriers might be a little better than a buttstock carrier... but some "light butt" guns might actually have a better balance with a buttstock carrier.
I really do like the buttstock carrier Mesa makes for the M2 that replaces the sling mount cross plate... very sanitary, solid and simple way to carry an extra 4 shells.

C
 

flippycat

New member
Just my .02 also on the subject ...Many things about tacti-cool / practical bolt ons mentioned are useful to be honest from opinion.

First I want to address the intimidation factor they provide... for a second or two anyways.
LASERS:
Any mounted laser even if it is 3 foot off from being accurately adjusted is enough to warrant fear factor into most anyone when displayed on someones person. Hypothetically speaking in regards to a new owner who never saw this coming, the worst case scenario happened and you do have a BG in the house and you are 30 foot away down a hallway and the first thing you do is tag him with a red dot and scream out 'dont f'n move. Odds are if he is not tweaking he will drop a deuce. Even if you cannot physically see the bg and can at least red dot somewhere in the same room odd's are he will break out the nearest window or possibly even move into view not knowing where the dot is coming from so you have something to at least shoot at.

Now however, I DO NOT agree with the above mentioned method of home protection, though this is a common mindset amongst those who would actually consider protecting their home and fearing having to actually discharge. ...Though, that (stand-off) option may be the only one that could be used say if actually discharging could mame others in the home if the BG is not standing where you want him to be. IE possibly missing the target or a through and through into a child's bedroom. Either case the thin sheet of 1/2in drywall is not stopping anything.


Now Just in General stuff:
Lets just say you have the bolt on list covered, it has all the toys on it. And lets just for a second pretend life is not a perfect scenario of a bg in the house and totally screw all the political jargon nothing applies here really but a natural disaster/survival setting.

The sling, many many uses...tourniquet for a wound sustained in disaster, used for a lift aid on a jagged object,a tie down for a person or object, holding a door closed, heck even holding an ill fitted pair of pants up that were the first thing you threw on running out the door before the house fell over.

Power outages for average joe and his two- 3 day supply:
Lights have been out for 4 days, candles used up and batteries on all your normal household flashlights are dead, but you do have the one mounted to your 500 ..a nice backup light for when really really needed to drop a midnight deuce in the pitch black or signal emergency crews nearby.



lol and yes I know they were a stretch to justify them, odds are that more practical things could be found in the debris that could be used rather then tearing the gun down except for my mentioned backup use for the flashlight.

All in all I do believe that intimidation out weighs any practical purposes though I believe there is practical purpose. The masses will not have the tactical training or even a scenario to use it in a tactical fashion. Though it is smaller and easy to keep hidden out of plain view then its full stocked full barreled brother.

A HD situation is almost impossible to predict all scenarios, but for those die hard full stock full barrel long gunners, you are not sitting in a stand beading down on a whitetail or sitting in your blind shooting ducks. You are not always going to get the best case scenario of a full shouldered shot and may need to take a hip/mid level shot if you need to swing around to get the guy who snuck up behind you or you just don't have that extra milli second to fully shoulder it. One nice thing about a HD situation is you most likely have staggered loads, so that first shot of 00 buck is going in the same direction regardless if you shouldered the shot or not.

lol, done with ramble on this note...does it really matter as long as you know how to shoot it? Give me a shell, a piece of pipe and a hammer and I will protect my home with it.
 

nemoaz

Moderator
When I started this thread, I had no idea it would develop "a life of it's own" and morph into the current, fun filled conversations.
All shotguns threads eventually become:

1. PGO or full stock,
2 Birdshot vs buckshot,
3 870 vs Mossberg, or
4. Usefulness of mall ninja operator tactical accessories (heat shields, bayonets, breaching muzzle devices)

:D
 

inSight-NEO

New member
Usefulness of mall ninja operator tactical accessories (heat shields, bayonets, breaching muzzle devices)

I keep seeing this phrase (mall ninja) and Im still wondering about its origin. After all, Ive never heard of any ninja using any such items, let alone the weapons needed for mounting them!

Besides...who likes going to the mall anyway? :rolleyes:

But, this is stuff best saved for another thread.....
 
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lmccrock

New member
I use an 1100 in 3-gun now but I started with a 590 (with heat shield). I would not have seen the value of a heat shield until I wrapped my hand around the 590 barrel after a 32 round 3-gun stage and it was toasty even with the shield. On long stages I wear a glove on my left hand because the 1100 barrel does get hot. So I suppose if you expect to fire off 20+ rounds in a defensive struggle than a heat shield is good. Otherwise - excessive weight. And that 590 with shield and sidesaddle with 6 shells and a full mag and chamber (9 more shells) is heavy. Add more tacticool stuff - more heavy!

Lee
 

inSight-NEO

New member
Google is your friend. There's more, but here's a start: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hmm..Interesting. That must be one rough and tough shopping center.:rolleyes:

Speaking of "mall ninja" and "tacticool" type things....I think a previous post nailed it with the phrase "practicool." Sure, quite a few accessories and/or mods can be ridiculous and unnecessary. But, there are some out there which continue to prove themselves as quite useful and dare I say...practical.

Now, when it comes to the reliability regarding some of these items, who can say? I guess this is where ol' Mr. Murphy becomes a factor. It seems like there is always a give and take.

Personally, my "practicool" items can be justified as such:

a) the white light system- This is a given...Its just too hard to hold a light and manipulate a pump shotty. I would like to be prepared when things go "BUMP" in the night.

b) the sidesaddle- Since (even with a mag extension) I only tend to keep 4 rounds in the mag tube, I personally feel better having a few more rounds "mounted" on the gun. After all, I dont intend on sleeping with an ammo belt. As I mentioned before, its one of those things Id rather have and never need than to be without it when I really need it.

c) the pistol grip stock- For me, well...I just shoot better with the PG stock. Also, it not only allows for greater one-handed manipulation of the weapon, but I believe (due to the strong grip it affords) the PG equipped stock just might make the weapon harder to disarm.

d) the mag tube extension- Well, not really "tactical"....I just like the idea of being able to shove in 6 rounds vs 4.

e) the Urban ERT sling- I have it due to the fact that it allows for a 1-point carry. My wife thinks it looks goofy when I carry this way. I dont care. I think it allows for exceptionally quick weapon acquisition and manipulation vs 2-point. Besides, the Benell SNT doesnt allow for a great 2-point carry when using this sling. However, I hardly use a sling and really only bought it for one of those proverbial "rainy days." I will have to admit however, this 1-point thing does make the weapon seem much more "tacticool"!!! :D
 
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