Right. But in terms of the dramatic recoil flinch that plagues newer shooters it’s a good way to show it. I’ve had shooters at the range convinced that they weren’t flinching, until they could see it in the above.
So I kind of suck at shooting pistols
- Thread starter Rothdel
- Start date
Right. But in terms of the dramatic recoil flinch that plagues newer shooters it’s a good way to show it. I’ve had shooters at the range convinced that they weren’t flinching, until they could see it in the above.
stuckinthe60s
New member
ya gotta WANT to be better, in order to BE better.
there has to be a REWARD for correct performance and a LOSS for poor performance.
you must set for yourself a standard.
think...
why do you want to shoot better?
what will it take to be better?
am i willing to do what it takes to be better?
then go do it.
whatever it takes.
talk is cheap. rounds down range are expensive.
spend what it takes and with time, itll start making sense.
and do it before you eyes go bad.
regards...VVV
there has to be a REWARD for correct performance and a LOSS for poor performance.
you must set for yourself a standard.
think...
why do you want to shoot better?
what will it take to be better?
am i willing to do what it takes to be better?
then go do it.
whatever it takes.
talk is cheap. rounds down range are expensive.
spend what it takes and with time, itll start making sense.
and do it before you eyes go bad.
regards...VVV
Nobody is as good as the keyboard commandos say they are. Want to shoot the wings off a fly at 100yds with iron sights from a 2" revolver?
You do it the same way they guys who claim to have done it did it. You type it out, and hit the "enter" key. OR for the video guys, take a picture of the wingless fly and claim to have done it...
Personally, I'm not a big fan of watching Utube to learn things. Usually what I see is 25hrs of watching crap to find 20 minutes of worthwhile information, and most of the time, its information I already knew.
My personal shooting experience showed me that i had "plateaus" of skill. I would reach a certain point, and then no further, and pushing myself never seemed to change that. For me. Just relaxing and shooting, not worrying about anything but getting hits where I wanted and doing what I liked to do eventually led to me "reaching the next level" and being able to do it on a regular basis.
Until I was just past 30, it seems no matter what I tried I couldn't hit the proverbial bull in the butt shooting a revolver DA. So, I never tried it much. Just kept shooting SA and enjoying it.
Then, one day, just for "spits & giggles" I DA shot my steel plate (about 30yds) and hit. Second shot hit. So did 3 others. Next cylinder I was actually trying a bit more and ran 6x6.
This was slow fire, and it helped teach me the wisdom of the masters who say "make haste, slowly".
Practice matters, PROPER practice helps more than poor practice.
Forget internet claims of teeny tiny groups. Consider what YOU have and are using. 5 shots from a .45 in one ragged hole can be a 2.5" group.
you want a .25" group at 25yds? I might be able to do that. Rested from a bench, shooting a scoped bolt action XP-100 in .221Fireball. Or maybe using a scoped T/C Contender in .222REM or something like that.
Shooting that size group from any conventional service pistol class gun? Not happening in the real world.
If you're looking to train for competition, spending time and money on COMPETENT professional training might be the best way to go.
If you're just looking to get better, try picking one gun, one load and one type of shooting exercise that you enjoy and do that, over and over until you can do it flawlessly without having to "work" at it. Get to that point, and I think you'll see an improvement in everything else you try to do with a handgun.
and don't expect it to happen overnight. Like some other things, it can take years of practice to become an "overnight success". Some folks have a natural gift for some things. Others don't, but can learn with time and practice.
Just out of curiosity, what handguns do you have and enjoy? I've got pistols ranging from .22LR to .45-70. Each one is different, and some I have greater skill with than others, but I can shoot all of them to my satisfaction, and in the end, isn't that what really matters??
You do it the same way they guys who claim to have done it did it. You type it out, and hit the "enter" key. OR for the video guys, take a picture of the wingless fly and claim to have done it...
Personally, I'm not a big fan of watching Utube to learn things. Usually what I see is 25hrs of watching crap to find 20 minutes of worthwhile information, and most of the time, its information I already knew.
My personal shooting experience showed me that i had "plateaus" of skill. I would reach a certain point, and then no further, and pushing myself never seemed to change that. For me. Just relaxing and shooting, not worrying about anything but getting hits where I wanted and doing what I liked to do eventually led to me "reaching the next level" and being able to do it on a regular basis.
Until I was just past 30, it seems no matter what I tried I couldn't hit the proverbial bull in the butt shooting a revolver DA. So, I never tried it much. Just kept shooting SA and enjoying it.
Then, one day, just for "spits & giggles" I DA shot my steel plate (about 30yds) and hit. Second shot hit. So did 3 others. Next cylinder I was actually trying a bit more and ran 6x6.
This was slow fire, and it helped teach me the wisdom of the masters who say "make haste, slowly".
Practice matters, PROPER practice helps more than poor practice.
Forget internet claims of teeny tiny groups. Consider what YOU have and are using. 5 shots from a .45 in one ragged hole can be a 2.5" group.
you want a .25" group at 25yds? I might be able to do that. Rested from a bench, shooting a scoped bolt action XP-100 in .221Fireball. Or maybe using a scoped T/C Contender in .222REM or something like that.
Shooting that size group from any conventional service pistol class gun? Not happening in the real world.
If you're looking to train for competition, spending time and money on COMPETENT professional training might be the best way to go.
If you're just looking to get better, try picking one gun, one load and one type of shooting exercise that you enjoy and do that, over and over until you can do it flawlessly without having to "work" at it. Get to that point, and I think you'll see an improvement in everything else you try to do with a handgun.
and don't expect it to happen overnight. Like some other things, it can take years of practice to become an "overnight success". Some folks have a natural gift for some things. Others don't, but can learn with time and practice.
Just out of curiosity, what handguns do you have and enjoy? I've got pistols ranging from .22LR to .45-70. Each one is different, and some I have greater skill with than others, but I can shoot all of them to my satisfaction, and in the end, isn't that what really matters??
FireForged
New member
oDecide what you want to do...
do you want to be an impressive shooting exhibitionist
or
do you want to be a competent fighter/defender
armed Fighting is one thing, gun games is something else. Being good at one doesnt necessarily mean that you are good at the other.
I have seen plenty of people who can shoot a jelly bean off a golf tee in the blink of an eye but when they get into force on force training, they get their rear end handed to them by people with a fraction of their "shooting" skill.
do you want to be an impressive shooting exhibitionist
or
do you want to be a competent fighter/defender
armed Fighting is one thing, gun games is something else. Being good at one doesnt necessarily mean that you are good at the other.
I have seen plenty of people who can shoot a jelly bean off a golf tee in the blink of an eye but when they get into force on force training, they get their rear end handed to them by people with a fraction of their "shooting" skill.
We all have an opinion and so do I. A good shooter should be an all-rounder and accuracy is a big part of it. It isn't for nothing that it was said that the master was made at 20 yards and IPSIC and IDPA were both started with defensive shooting in mind before it turned into an equipment race.
In order to learn pistol craft properly it is necessary to have learnt the basics of marksmanship and remember them. Remembering them takes constant reinforcement and training, just as speed shooting does. The physical aspect in the shooting sport should never be underestimated and hand strength is of vital importance for a fast double tap.
A baby learns to crawl before it starts to walk, runnning comes later. It is the same in pistolcraft.
In order to learn pistol craft properly it is necessary to have learnt the basics of marksmanship and remember them. Remembering them takes constant reinforcement and training, just as speed shooting does. The physical aspect in the shooting sport should never be underestimated and hand strength is of vital importance for a fast double tap.
A baby learns to crawl before it starts to walk, runnning comes later. It is the same in pistolcraft.
stinkeypete
New member
1. Join a club with a weekly .22 bullseye (precision) pistol league. Sign up for it. Start shooting. Take photos of your targets with your score on them every week.
2. Read the AMU pistol training manual. It's online.
3. Start doing hand exercises with a tennis ball while surfing the web.
4. Get a decent air pistol and shoot for practice indoors a few times a week. Keep score.
5. Talk to the good shooters at your pistol league to get pointers.
I realize that all the rage now is shooting really fast at enormous steel pizza pans at 10 yards but I maintain that shooting slow, medium and rapid (5 shots in 10 seconds. But you have to hit a regulation target!) and being able to HIT WHAT YOU AIM AT is a very handy skill when shooting pistols.
Once you start to practice seriously and several times a week, and learn what a "Natural Stance" is.. you'll find that your scores begin to climb slowly.
You'll find that shooting the same score with a centerfire pistol is REALLY HARD, not because centerfire is all that less accurate, but because of FLINCH. It's for real. So once you can shoot in the high 80's... try that in centerfire.
Back when I was shooting regularly, a buddy of mine claimed that the only reason I could beat his scores was that I had a dot optical sight on my .22. I turned my dot sight off and just used it as a huge ghost ring. I still beat his score.
He tried my gun and got his best score ever. "I need a new pistol, this ruger is junk."
The guy that always won our league was a High Master and kindly always managed to miss enough weeks to not qualify for the trophy. He asks if he can shoot my pal's Ruger, then proceeds to shoot a 96 with it. Iron sights. "I could tune this up for you, but it's not too bad."
Lesson: for us beginners and intermediates, a great trigger and sight will buy us points and help develop good skills. To get to the top level, it's practice, skill and natural ability.
When you have that down, say after a year of league shooting, you can just pick your pistol up and shoot pretty well without even being conscious of aiming. Concentration? You can shoot even better.
2. Read the AMU pistol training manual. It's online.
3. Start doing hand exercises with a tennis ball while surfing the web.
4. Get a decent air pistol and shoot for practice indoors a few times a week. Keep score.
5. Talk to the good shooters at your pistol league to get pointers.
I realize that all the rage now is shooting really fast at enormous steel pizza pans at 10 yards but I maintain that shooting slow, medium and rapid (5 shots in 10 seconds. But you have to hit a regulation target!) and being able to HIT WHAT YOU AIM AT is a very handy skill when shooting pistols.
Once you start to practice seriously and several times a week, and learn what a "Natural Stance" is.. you'll find that your scores begin to climb slowly.
You'll find that shooting the same score with a centerfire pistol is REALLY HARD, not because centerfire is all that less accurate, but because of FLINCH. It's for real. So once you can shoot in the high 80's... try that in centerfire.
Back when I was shooting regularly, a buddy of mine claimed that the only reason I could beat his scores was that I had a dot optical sight on my .22. I turned my dot sight off and just used it as a huge ghost ring. I still beat his score.
He tried my gun and got his best score ever. "I need a new pistol, this ruger is junk."
The guy that always won our league was a High Master and kindly always managed to miss enough weeks to not qualify for the trophy. He asks if he can shoot my pal's Ruger, then proceeds to shoot a 96 with it. Iron sights. "I could tune this up for you, but it's not too bad."
Lesson: for us beginners and intermediates, a great trigger and sight will buy us points and help develop good skills. To get to the top level, it's practice, skill and natural ability.
When you have that down, say after a year of league shooting, you can just pick your pistol up and shoot pretty well without even being conscious of aiming. Concentration? You can shoot even better.
OP - Thanks for starting this thread. I feel that I'm kind of like you. Have been shooting pistols for fun for many years, but feel like my skill level is not only frozen, but frozen at a pretty mediocre level.
The one thing I thought I was decent at was slow fire for accuracy. Then I read JohnKSa's post. If I can't shoot 1" groups at 10 yards I either have a tremor, poor eyesight or a serious flinch? On a good day, shooting a very accurate .22 with a red dot I can keep about 80-90% of my shots in a 3" circle at 50' (which is less than 17 yards). So I kind of suck at this as well.
And put any kind of time pressure on me and take away the red dot and things fall apart pretty fast. If I really try to shoot for speed that 10" plate that's 7 yards away might as well be the size of a dime.
The one thing I thought I was decent at was slow fire for accuracy. Then I read JohnKSa's post. If I can't shoot 1" groups at 10 yards I either have a tremor, poor eyesight or a serious flinch?
On a good day, shooting a very accurate .22 with a red dot I can keep about 80-90% of my shots in a 3" circle at 50' (which is less than 17 yards). So I kind of suck at this as well.And put any kind of time pressure on me and take away the red dot and things fall apart pretty fast. If I really try to shoot for speed that 10" plate that's 7 yards away might as well be the size of a dime.
I don't want to discourage anyone, but in my experience, if a person can see the sights and the target clearly, control the flinch/anticipation, hold the gun steady, the gun is capable of decent accuracy and there isn't a problem with the ammo, it should be possible to shoot 5 shot, 1" groups at 30 feet/10 yards with some level of consistency if the shooter is really taking their time and paying attention to basics.
That would correspond to groups about 5" at 50 yards. Since the 9 ring on a 50 yard NRA precision pistol target is about 5.5" in diameter, this level of accuracy would correspond to being able to shoot a 9 or better on the 50 yard target with some level of consistency if the shooter is really taking their time and paying attention to basics. But remember, we're talking about two-handed shooting without time limits and under no pressure, not the one-handed shooting with the (albeit generous) time limits and the competition pressure that go along with bullseye.
Basically it works out to about 10MOA.
If that's not how things are turning out, if groups shot under the conditions above are significantly larger than 1", then there's almost certainly an issue with anticipation/flinch.
That would correspond to groups about 5" at 50 yards. Since the 9 ring on a 50 yard NRA precision pistol target is about 5.5" in diameter, this level of accuracy would correspond to being able to shoot a 9 or better on the 50 yard target with some level of consistency if the shooter is really taking their time and paying attention to basics. But remember, we're talking about two-handed shooting without time limits and under no pressure, not the one-handed shooting with the (albeit generous) time limits and the competition pressure that go along with bullseye.
Basically it works out to about 10MOA.
If that's not how things are turning out, if groups shot under the conditions above are significantly larger than 1", then there's almost certainly an issue with anticipation/flinch.
So here's a thought for those of us that feel like we suck at shooting pistols ... suck compared to who?
My guess is that 75% of the guys in the U.S. have probably never held, much less shot, a handgun. Include women and that number goes up substantially. And some of this is regional. I used to live in MA and would guess that between it's liberal, antigun bias and the gun laws fewer than 1 in 10 guys have handled a pistol. So, depending on where you live, even if you can barely hit the side of a barn, you're still a better shot than 80-95% of your neighbors who would have trouble loading, much less shooting, a handgun.
And focusing of the 10-20% of the people who do own and occasionally shoot pistols - go to your public indoor range. Take a look at how many bullet holes are in the ceiling, floor, and side walls. Observe your fellow shooters. Yes, there will be some old guy in the corner shooting an even older bullseye gun one handed and printing 2" groups at 25 yards. But there will also be a bunch of people shooting full sized silhouette targets at 7 yards and barely keeping their rounds on paper.
So yeah, compared to a top bullseye shooter (or a top IDPA/IPSC/Steel Challenge shooter) most of us suck. But at least we're practicing and trying to improve and our pistols don't sit in the safe gathering dust. I mean there are over 300,000,000 people in the U.S. If a million of them can out shoot you you're still in the top 1/3 of one percent.
My guess is that 75% of the guys in the U.S. have probably never held, much less shot, a handgun. Include women and that number goes up substantially. And some of this is regional. I used to live in MA and would guess that between it's liberal, antigun bias and the gun laws fewer than 1 in 10 guys have handled a pistol. So, depending on where you live, even if you can barely hit the side of a barn, you're still a better shot than 80-95% of your neighbors who would have trouble loading, much less shooting, a handgun.
And focusing of the 10-20% of the people who do own and occasionally shoot pistols - go to your public indoor range. Take a look at how many bullet holes are in the ceiling, floor, and side walls. Observe your fellow shooters. Yes, there will be some old guy in the corner shooting an even older bullseye gun one handed and printing 2" groups at 25 yards. But there will also be a bunch of people shooting full sized silhouette targets at 7 yards and barely keeping their rounds on paper.
So yeah, compared to a top bullseye shooter (or a top IDPA/IPSC/Steel Challenge shooter) most of us suck. But at least we're practicing and trying to improve and our pistols don't sit in the safe gathering dust. I mean there are over 300,000,000 people in the U.S. If a million of them can out shoot you you're still in the top 1/3 of one percent.
That's true. Most people have real trouble getting good results with a pistol.
What I said wasn't intended to make people feel bad about their shooting, but rather to give them one possible issue (that happens to be the most common one I see with pistol shooters) to work on in their training if they want to improve. The OP seemed to be asking for ways to improve.
People who are shooting for fun and are happy with their performance should just keep on doing what they are doing.
What I said wasn't intended to make people feel bad about their shooting, but rather to give them one possible issue (that happens to be the most common one I see with pistol shooters) to work on in their training if they want to improve. The OP seemed to be asking for ways to improve.
People who are shooting for fun and are happy with their performance should just keep on doing what they are doing.
The only time I shot competitively was in college with a .22 LR Rifle Team. After that, and until now, I'm just a fun shooter. I entered the handgun phase of my gun "career" with a Hawes Western Marshall .44 Mag that hurt my third right finger so badly that I traded it for a Ruger SuperBlackHawk. That instantly fixed my problem, which in turn encouraged my growth of interest, stopping at .454 Casull.
When I was in my 40's, I shot bowling pins off-hand (2-hands) at 200 yards with a Ruger SuperRedhawk and a Tasco Pro-point red dot sight. Now 40 years later, I can only do that off a rest.
I have a "Eze-Scorer" 12" x 18" BC IPSC Practice Target that I recently shot, hanging on the gun safe. From 7 yards, 2-handed, I fired 61 shots. 45 of them were 9mm and 16 were .380 Auto. Of 5 shots at the "head," 2 were in the "A" and 3 were in the "B" rings.
There was 1 each in the "C" and "D" rings.
In the 3.25" x 6.25-inch "A" ring I found 54 shots (96%), with 49 in a big hole, 1.4-inch group.
The single, most important reason for this "success" was I concentrated.
My greatest weakness is failure to concentrate, which invariably provides for a bad day at the range. Maybe I misread it, but I thought JohnKSa suggested success was 10 shots at 10 yards in a 10-inch ring. That day, went out to try, and I did it with my Kimber .45 ACP. Three days ago was totally and completely frustrating. I started and easily hit 7 of 8 bowlings pins at 10 yards with the .45 ACP. At 15 yards with an 1873 Taylor's .45 Colt, I hit 3. At 25 yards with the Ruger .44 Mag, I hit 3. WHY???
I caught myself flinching and slapping the triggers. Recoil doesn't bother me -so I think. But in these situations, I was clearly anticipating recoil and I stopped concentrating. The lesson to learn? Stop and analyze why you are not achieving your goal. Concentrate on fixing it. As a non-competitive shooter you will eventually succeed enough to satisfy yourself, but you will invariably have days when you have to reassess what you are doing wrong. Practice. Analyze. Repair. Practice. Don't give up.
When I was in my 40's, I shot bowling pins off-hand (2-hands) at 200 yards with a Ruger SuperRedhawk and a Tasco Pro-point red dot sight. Now 40 years later, I can only do that off a rest.
I have a "Eze-Scorer" 12" x 18" BC IPSC Practice Target that I recently shot, hanging on the gun safe. From 7 yards, 2-handed, I fired 61 shots. 45 of them were 9mm and 16 were .380 Auto. Of 5 shots at the "head," 2 were in the "A" and 3 were in the "B" rings.
There was 1 each in the "C" and "D" rings.
In the 3.25" x 6.25-inch "A" ring I found 54 shots (96%), with 49 in a big hole, 1.4-inch group.
The single, most important reason for this "success" was I concentrated.
My greatest weakness is failure to concentrate, which invariably provides for a bad day at the range. Maybe I misread it, but I thought JohnKSa suggested success was 10 shots at 10 yards in a 10-inch ring. That day, went out to try, and I did it with my Kimber .45 ACP. Three days ago was totally and completely frustrating. I started and easily hit 7 of 8 bowlings pins at 10 yards with the .45 ACP. At 15 yards with an 1873 Taylor's .45 Colt, I hit 3. At 25 yards with the Ruger .44 Mag, I hit 3. WHY???
I caught myself flinching and slapping the triggers. Recoil doesn't bother me -so I think. But in these situations, I was clearly anticipating recoil and I stopped concentrating. The lesson to learn? Stop and analyze why you are not achieving your goal. Concentrate on fixing it. As a non-competitive shooter you will eventually succeed enough to satisfy yourself, but you will invariably have days when you have to reassess what you are doing wrong. Practice. Analyze. Repair. Practice. Don't give up.
I suspect most of us are really just competing with ourselves. Personally, the one time I've ever shot pistol in any kind of competition was about 20 years ago I shot some kind of silhouette match with my trusty Smith & Wesson 610. (Steel pigs, chickens, rams, etc. at various distances). I came in second. Of course there were only 3 competitors in my division.
Really only care about how others are shooting because it provides some kind of metric I can use to evaluate how I'm doing - i.e. am I a pistol God because I can consistently hit a bowling pin at 10 yards? Do I suck because I can only hit a 6" steel plate at 30 yards 6-7 out of 10 shots?
Ultimately, it's really just about having fun and hoping that, with practice, you at least show some incremental improvement. Particularly if you're shooting slow fire, for accuracy, at distances of 30+ yards since that's not the kind of shooting you're likely to do in a self-defense scenario.
Really only care about how others are shooting because it provides some kind of metric I can use to evaluate how I'm doing - i.e. am I a pistol God because I can consistently hit a bowling pin at 10 yards? Do I suck because I can only hit a 6" steel plate at 30 yards 6-7 out of 10 shots?
Ultimately, it's really just about having fun and hoping that, with practice, you at least show some incremental improvement. Particularly if you're shooting slow fire, for accuracy, at distances of 30+ yards since that's not the kind of shooting you're likely to do in a self-defense scenario.
In a pistol class I took some years back, the instructor had everyone shoot at a bowling pin at 50 yards. Everyone hit it eventually, but only two people hit it on the first try. One of them was the instructor.
At 30 yards, 6" is about 19MOA. Being able to keep 60-70% of your shots within 19MOA at 30 yards is definitely not "sucking".
If you are satisfied with that level of achievement, I don't think that's really a problem--you're doing better than most pistol shooters. But if you want to do better, I think that's within the realm of what's possible.
stuckinthe60s
New member
red dots dont compensate for wind.
Thank you for all the helpful replies. Its nice to see several people share my concern. I've checked out a lot of the resources on this thread and am attempting to take the advice I can. Again not a lot of class options that fit my schedule.
I think the other thing that has become apparent to me after reading this thread is that the idea of proficient and good are different things to different people. As I reflect on why I wrote this post I think that might be the crux of my problem. As I read posts or watch Youtube the idea of what a good shooter looks like gets skewed. I get to the range once or twice a month if I'm lucky. I have many interests in shooting and my tastes vary depending on the day so a trip to the range may be .22 pistols or shotgun sports, or sighting in my bolt guns. I don't focus on one discipline most of the time. The only exception to that is my carry guns (1 summer/1 winter) that I practice with enough to feel comfortable with all the time. In the case of my expectations I want to be feel confident that I can put an entire magazine directionally where I aim at 7-10 yards. I can do that. Its not super fast, groups are not the size of a nickel, and I'm sure I could improve. While I will try to improve after reading the posts here for my needs I think I'm proficient and even good for my needs. I'm not a competitive shooter in any discipline and consider myself a hobbyist at best. I like guns. I like shooting guns. I'm good enough to hit what I aim at with in reasonable distances to what I would ever need. Maybe thats good enough.
I think the other thing that has become apparent to me after reading this thread is that the idea of proficient and good are different things to different people. As I reflect on why I wrote this post I think that might be the crux of my problem. As I read posts or watch Youtube the idea of what a good shooter looks like gets skewed. I get to the range once or twice a month if I'm lucky. I have many interests in shooting and my tastes vary depending on the day so a trip to the range may be .22 pistols or shotgun sports, or sighting in my bolt guns. I don't focus on one discipline most of the time. The only exception to that is my carry guns (1 summer/1 winter) that I practice with enough to feel comfortable with all the time. In the case of my expectations I want to be feel confident that I can put an entire magazine directionally where I aim at 7-10 yards. I can do that. Its not super fast, groups are not the size of a nickel, and I'm sure I could improve. While I will try to improve after reading the posts here for my needs I think I'm proficient and even good for my needs. I'm not a competitive shooter in any discipline and consider myself a hobbyist at best. I like guns. I like shooting guns. I'm good enough to hit what I aim at with in reasonable distances to what I would ever need. Maybe thats good enough.
For self-defense shooting, you really don't want tiny group sizes. That would mean you're shooting too slowly. What you would want for self-defense shooting is to keep all your shots in the A-zone of one of the "practical" pistol sports targets while taking a minimum amount of time to do so and shooting from no more than about 10 yards. Ideally you'd like to be able to do that while moving.