So I bought a few green mountain blanks...

Gunplummer

New member
Clark, you are confusing the issue. Mauser bolts (Everyone I ever worked on) are mild steel and really will not change from a little heat. I saw photos of a Russian receiver you welded on and I bet the case is still hard near the weld. I have used heat sink and really do not care for it. A lot of the problems caused by heat are from years back when welding options were limited. I know guys that used to submerge the bolt in water to gas weld the bolt handle on. I have gas welded, but only when I wanted to use a rod of the same material so I could re-heat treat. I usually use an arc welder, Put a short bead on, stick the part of the bolt FARTHEST from the weld under running water, and then weld a small bead again. I have welded both receivers and bolts made of 4140 and have NEVER had a crack develop or lost a bolt handle. Welding is pretty much like heat treating. You have to understand what the properties are of the material you are working with.
 

Dixie Gunsmithing

Moderator Emeritus
Gunplummer, I agree. However, I did fabricate fixtures to hold parts from wanting to warp, if I thought that they had a good chance of it. But of course, it is how much heat you apply, and the amount of weld, that will cause it. A larger spot of weld, with pull at the piece with more force that a smaller.

Back when they had to gas weld everything, that put bookoos of heat into a part, but by using a TIG, you can put a sudden amount of energy and a small spot of metal pretty quick, so that smaller amount of heat dissipates quicker, and does not travel as far. If you let it cool between spots, then you can do a lot without warping.
 

Gunplummer

New member
I never did tig welding, but from what I have seen and been told, it is not much more than really clean gas welding. I suspect that if you were to actually use a rod of 4140 to weld 4140, the heat would be a lot higher. You can see anywhere a weld (With standard rods) is on a gun part made of 4140 as soon as it is blued. You can re heat treat and draw back and that weld will show up when blued. It is not the weld that gets hard, it is right next to it. No matter how much you cool the area, or restrict the area from heat, that steel was a red hot liquid right next to where you laid the bead down. If it was not, you just "Tacked" it on. That is the area I would worry about, not the inside of the barrel. Take another look at that broken weld picture. That weld looks as if was barely tacked on. And it looks crystallized.
 

Dixie Gunsmithing

Moderator Emeritus
Gunplummer, Whatever they did, I've not seen that before on guns. I think that may have been flash welded, a type of resistance weld. They literally just mash the two pieces together, while applying a current, as the edges were all that welded along a thin edge. They weld the yokes on RR car brake rods that way.
 

Gunplummer

New member
What it comes down to is: You can probably get away with light cartridges with out a problem. High pressure rounds would probably need some looking into. More than "Hey, I have heat sink and a welder". I am working at a shop right now that deals in tons (Yes, tons) of 4140 series pre-heat material every year, and both cast steel and iron. All three can go crazy when you weld on them.
I will admit, I have done plenty of things with guns that the books say "Don't ever do this....". That is because I really take everything into account before experimenting. I don't see that on this thread.
 

tobnpr

New member
I have much to learn still about welding techniques as applies to the specific application at hand.

But, I do believe this is true..

A lot of the problems caused by heat are from years back when welding options were limited.

Welding using a torch- as was done "B.I.T.D.", vs. MIG/TIG is comparing apples and oranges. Even stick creates a much larger HAZ.

Depending on what you're doing, full-penetration (strength) welding may not be necessary- and thus less heat is generated. I can run a short MIG bead, and then pick up the part an inch from where I just welded and quench (if needed) before that area even gets too hot to hold. The HAZ using these methods is extremely small.
 

Gunplummer

New member
You are welding junk steel on Russian rifles, just like on Mausers. Do you frequently weld on the barrels of these guns, which are high carbon steel? Do you weld on springs? Do you frequently weld on Russian and Mauser bolt lugs? Would you buy a chromemolly barrel that was normalized and not heat treated at all? Over the years I have seen really stupid stuff done to guns with welding, and even worse with brazing. The defense is usually, "Hey, this was made from good steel back then." It probably was good steel before they got a hold of it.
 
Bob Day used to build up 1911 link lugs for fitting by gas welding using a magazine spring as the filler so he'd get a surface that would last. I wouldn't have tried it. When I was building 1911's, I always had a guy who was a good TIG welder with aerospace certs who was in our pistol league do that when it was needed to salvage a barrel. I watched him weld two pieces of Studebaker fender steel together as part of a car restoration, and get a seam nearly perfectly flush on that thin steel. No, it's not 4140, but in terms of localizing the heat, it's not anything I can imagine any MIG welder I've seen producing, though most of the MIG welding I've been around was done on aluminum, so it probably doesn't count.


Gunplumber,

I think you and I got off track back there. Your concern seems to be the surface hardness and finishing issues and unpredictability therewith. My point with the flow-through coolant was to preserve a layer of steel in original hardness on the inside of the bore and chamber and leave managing the outside up to the welder and his skills. I had in mind Hatcher's photo of a 30-06 barrel he turned down until it was only 0.0625" thick (Hatcher's Notebook pp. 201-202) over the chamber and reported it withstood three regular rounds, and then was blown out by a blue pill rated at 70,000 CUP (he says "pounds", but they still believed copper crushers were giving them real psi back then, so it was probably closer to 110-120 kpsi (see error curve for 30-06 p. 43, Brownell et al.)).

If you can preserve that much thickness at the core, or more, then you at least have a pressure vessel you know is not brittle and can contain normal rifle peak pressures. It might look like a misguided attempt at color case-hardening on the outside, but the inside would have integrity.

I have eleven issued patents related to applied thermodynamics and the second half of my career was built in the area of heat transfer, so I can guarantee what I suggested will preserve that core layer without needing to do an experiment. All that is required is that the steel be homogeneous and at least 5/32" thick from the bottom of the trough of the melt to the core. I am not a welder, though, so I don't think that even if I wanted to try it, I could do a valid experiment whose result would compare well with what a skilled welder's work would produce. My TIG guy is long gone, alas.

But also, I'm not sure what the experiment would demonstrate? I could show the original temper survived at the core, as I predicted, by sectioning the work and getting a lab at the University to provide a radial hardness profile, and to do one on the material before stress-relieving and one after to show changes out beyond the preserved core. I do have a large knife oven that would handle the stress-relieving. But some expense would be involved in getting the lab to make the measurements that I don't care to undertake given that I can show in a finite element analysis exactly what result to expect at the core. Again, what happens to the outside is not within my purview, beyond being able say I am confident the metal can be welded with the fluid running through it with enough power, and that it may subsequently be stress-relieved. If it looks like it ran naked through a blackberry patch afterward, that's another matter.
 

Gunplummer

New member
Exactly. You are not a welder. One of the posts (Not going back through) roughly stated that the poster was not sure if the lug actually did anything at all. Really? What, as long as you can still cut the chamber with a reamer, the rest of the barrel is someone else's problem. I re-cut chrome lined chambers with reamers made from 0-1 T/S. There are carbide reamers out there. That is not the point.
 
Again, we just don't seem to be discussing the same thing. I thought the concern was whether or not the thing would be safe to fire in the end, not whether or not it is possible to cut a chamber into unevenly hard steel. Whether or not it is safe to fire has two parts. One is containing pressure in the barrel, the other is holding the gun closed via the lug on the barrel. What I described doing only addresses the first part of the equation. It forces a layer of steel around the bore and chamber with unchanged properties to be preserved and that is thick enough to contain pressure. Just that part of the equation. Nothing else. Not the strength of the lug attachment. I am not seeking to impact the welding of that attachment one way or another, nor offering advice on how to best weld that attachment. I am just addressing managing the heat from welding as it nears the bore.
 

Gunplummer

New member
Yep. I actually played around doing the same thing once, but was aware of the steel's qualities and heat treatment. Sold it at a show years ago. Somewhere there is a 30-40/scoped/welded Russian out there. Welded in a receiver bridge and put a Remington bolt handle behind the bridge. Check the area around the weld. When I did mine, it retained the case around the weld (Scratch check) almost up to the weld. Russian receivers are mild steel like Mausers. If you grind off the case, the steel underneath will not get hard unless you add carbon to it. It does not work that way with barrels(4140).
 

jmorris

New member
This one's not a "I have a heat sink and a welder" but no knowlege of welding project. Not a lot to this one, not even close to this little 30,000,000,000 BTU hydrogen/NG, stainless/Inconel burner, for example. That was much more complicated and tested by several methods including x-ray before being put into service.

IMAG0126.jpg
 

jmorris

New member
An understanding of what it takes to make a good weld that does't harm parent materials. Seems like a tangent has spun off of the thread. The simple fact is that "factory" TC barrels are welded and you don't have to have recieved a check from TC to make as good or better weld than they acheive.
 

jmorris

New member
Sure you did, on the last page you didn't know that TC welded the lugs onto their barrels. You thought they machined them from a single billet then drilled and rifled them.

I would like to think that the barrel is an undrilled bar before welding. Even a lot of the old S/S shotgun barrels were forged as one piece. I don't know,
 

Clark

New member
I have a TIG welder, but I forget how to turn it on.

But I have a butane torch, and I could still solder a barrel to break action front end.
 

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