SNIPER/LONG RANGE/Hunting Rifle

taylorce1

New member
I guess my main problem with this post is that you seem to be trying to buy accuracy. I was taught when you are consistantly shooting the same way every time and you can't wring anymore accuracy from the shooter that is when you look at improving the rifle/equipment.
PLEASE, EVERYBODY NOTE THAT I DON'T INTEND TO TAKE LONG RANGE HEAD SHOTS... I just want a rifle that's capable of it.

That tells us you are thinking about being able to do it. The fact is what you are looking for is out there, but are you capable of performing? kraigwy gave you the best advice of all on this in post #2.

NOTE: I don't believe that a rifle that shoots one ragged hole at 100 yard's can do sub-MOA at all ranges out to 1000 yards...

Wrong if you have a load that shoots a ragged hole at 100 yards the rifle and load will be sub-moa at all ranges. What will cause you not to be sub-moa at all ranges will be your skills behind the trigger. BC and SD don't matter at all and weather (wind) can all be compensated for to keep the load sub-moa as long as you can correctly gage them. When I said BC and SD don't matter, I mean as long as you know what they are you know how the bullet will act to external forces, so you can accurately predict the bullet trajectory.

Quote:
Your Vortex Viper PST is a great choice, and it would be mine...FFP is a big help for the type of accuracy you're trying to achieve
FFP it is... I will take this advice for sure.

I'm not sure a FFP scope is the way to go here, just because someone agreed with your choice. You want a scope that will not cover up point of aim at 1000 yards correct? What about close in shots? With a FFP scope your reticle gets bigger as you turn the scopes power up.

So if you have a reticle that is 1/4 moa thick on the highest power that will not cover up a 1/2 moa target (your requirement for sub 1/2 moa rifle) at 1000 yards, I doubt you'll be able to make it out on the lower powers very well. It is hard to find an animal at close range on high power if you have to make a quick shot. You might be better of with a 1/4 moa thick cross hair in the SFP that doesn't change size when you change the power.
 
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smith357

New member
You can easily find a rifle to do the job you want done for far less than 2K. The hard part is finding the person to shoot it well. :) A good used Win 70, Rem 700, or Sav 110 sporting rifle .308 or .30-06 can be found on the used market, often times with good scopes for under $500. with a shooter that knows how to dope his rifle these calibers are deadly out to 800 + meters. These lightweight sporting rifles are generally not shot out because they are really not that fun to shoot. The guys sitting at the bench all day long burning up barrels are using heavy varmint/target/sniper wannabe rifles, not shooting 7 1/2 lb rifles meant to be carried a few miles in and a few miles out and up the mountain both ways. :D Almost all of these rifles will shoot sub MOA with a lot of practice and some minor adjustments to the rifle and the load.
 

tobnpr

New member
I'm not sure a FFP scope is the way to go here, just because someone agreed with your choice. You want a scope that will not cover up point of aim at 1000 yards correct? What about close in shots? With a FFP scope your reticle gets bigger as you turn the scopes power up.

There are pro's and con's to FFP scopes. I don't own one because the $$ is not justified, we shoot steel and paper at known distances.

In a hunting application, a FFP (esp. in a mil/mil configuration) can make ranging the animal easier and faster, as well as faster adjustments for follow-up shots.

FFP scopes are not for everyone.
 

jimbob86

Moderator
then I can use that rifle to take a shot behind the ear at normal hunting ranges well under 400. Or so goes my theory

Shooting game (especially deer) in the head at any distance greater than contact range is foolish*: It is a small, round and hard target. It is nearly constantly moving...... if you are off by as little as 2" ( or the animal moves that much, or a combination of the two!), then you have done worse than miss: you have maimed the animal and it will did a slow death by starvation or infection, because your bullet broke it's jaw, or blinded it, or damaged the muscle on the back of the neck that allows it to hold it's head up ..... none of these are immediately fatal, but are pretty much fatal, eventually.

Couple that with the fact that the skull is hard and round ..... if your bullet strikes at a shallow angle .... it may not enter, but instead glance off.....

One more thing to consider: time of flight: a 165 gr .308 WIN bullet with a MV of 2700 f/sec will take 1/3 of a second to reach it's target..... EVEN IF YOUR GUN WILL SHOOT INTO 2" AT 300 YARDS, AND YOU ARE UP TO IT, can you guarantee the animal will not move it's he that much in .3 seconds? No.

There were some pretty graphic game-cam pics on here recently of a couple of deer that had broken jaws ..... not nice.

*.... and, as I learned at the age of 15, shooting them in the head at contact range with a high-powered rifle is foolish, as well: you'll be wearing their brains.
 

jimbob86

Moderator
I guess my main problem with this post is that you seem to be trying to buy accuracy.

You would be much better served buying a rifle that is capable of 2 MOA from a bench, and then practicing to the point that you can shoot a 2" group at 200 yards, from field positions, under time pressure. Master that, and then think about a precision rifle.
 

taylorce1

New member
There are pro's and con's to FFP scopes. I don't own one because the $$ is not justified, we shoot steel and paper at known distances.

In a hunting application, a FFP (esp. in a mil/mil configuration) can make ranging the animal easier and faster, as well as faster adjustments for follow-up shots.

FFP scopes are not for everyone.

I agree FFP scopes are not for everyone and a FFP reticle might work in this cae. My point was the OP wants a thin reticle less than 1/2 moa thick at top power. Depending on the scope he may not see the reticle well at low powers. I know I want a reticle that will allow me to shoot well at normal hunting ranges as well as long range and I'm just not sure a FFP is ideal for the OP's desires.

As far as ranging capabilities he already stated he doesn't see very many full broadside shots on elk. If he can't see the depth of the brisket I doubt he'll be able to use the ranging functions of a FFP reticle very effectively and will have to rely on a range finder. Besides he can range with a SFP scope with the proper reticle as well and still be able to use it effectively at short range.

Here is a good explanation of what I’m talking about: Leupold FAQ
Rear Focal Plane Reticles – In general, hunting scopes are designed with rear focal plane reticles; this allows the reticle to appear bolder and heavier when set to low magnification, but appear thinner and more precise when set to high magnification. Most hunters set variable magnification scopes to a mid-level magnification for general carry situations, reducing magnification in low-light or heavy cover situations, and increasing magnification for longer, more precise shooting solutions. Rear focal plane designs allow the reticle to appear bolder in low light, making them easy to see and faster to acquire when the light is fading. This same property is advantageous in situations where heavy cover may be encountered, allowing easy differentiation between the reticle and vegetation. If a longer distance shot is to be taken, the magnification can be increased, creating a situation where the reticle covers less of the target, allowing the user to be more precise. If a front focal design were used, hunters would notice that in low-light or heavy-cover situations, the reticle would become much smaller and more difficult to see on low magnification; right when they need the reticle to be bold and easy to acquire.

Front Focal Plane Reticles – Many tactical groups prefer front focal plane designs because common tactical reticles serve a dual purpose: a point of aim and a means of measurement. Reticles such as a mil dot are based on a specific subtension and require exact feature spacing to be accurate; if this type of reticle is used in a rear focal plane design, the scope must be used on a single, specific magnification (typically high power). Placing this type of reticle in a front focal plane design allows the operator to use the scope on any magnification while retaining the exact spacing of the reticle features.
 
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