There are always 22 mag Taurus revolvers (8 shot) that may do well with a trigger job. In my GP100 a light 38 load has no recoil. The trigger reach is less than on any auto, but may still be to long for the shortest of fingers. The SP101 series or similar Smiths or Taurus may be better in those cases. Depending on the disability a single action may be useable or a tilt barrel auto.
Small revolvers and women...
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
Thanks for the replies folks...
I worded my initial post a bit ambiguously. I'm not actually asking for advice on the topic, just complaining about the advice I see given to others.
Lisa and I have tried out a lot of guns and here are the ones that she can shoot well and is comfortable with.
Beretta 86 (Tip-up .380) This is a fairly large .380, even though it is a blow-back gun, it's quite comfortable for her to shoot. The spring is stiff, but the tip-up function means she never has to rack the slide.
Colt Mustang/Government .380. These two locked breech .380s are light recoiling. Also, as an added benefit the recoil springs are lighter than a typical .380 so she can rack the slide easily.
Kel-Tec P32. All the controls are easy for her and recoil isn't a problem (locked breech).
H&K USP 9mm. She loves this gun. Recoil is at her upper limit for comfort, but she's able to shoot a box or two at a time and can work the slide fairly easily.
Things that don't work:
Small revolvers as mentioned...
Makarov. She can't work the slide and the recoil is barely tolerable. She can only shoot a few rounds through it before her hands give out. The heel-clip mag release is too stiff for her to work.
All my other 9mms either recoil too much, or have springs too stiff for her to operate.
Sorry for the rant--it just gets a bit irritating for me, knowing what I do about this topic, to hear people being steered down the wrong path, OVER and OVER again...
What's even more irritating is to see good advice given but contradicted by others who obviously don't understand the situation clearly.
Good shooting,
John
One more thing, this isn't about all women by any means--my sister has a model 60 that she loves. But, she's not recoil sensitive and doesn't have any unusual problems with her hands.
I worded my initial post a bit ambiguously. I'm not actually asking for advice on the topic, just complaining about the advice I see given to others.
Lisa and I have tried out a lot of guns and here are the ones that she can shoot well and is comfortable with.
Beretta 86 (Tip-up .380) This is a fairly large .380, even though it is a blow-back gun, it's quite comfortable for her to shoot. The spring is stiff, but the tip-up function means she never has to rack the slide.
Colt Mustang/Government .380. These two locked breech .380s are light recoiling. Also, as an added benefit the recoil springs are lighter than a typical .380 so she can rack the slide easily.
Kel-Tec P32. All the controls are easy for her and recoil isn't a problem (locked breech).
H&K USP 9mm. She loves this gun. Recoil is at her upper limit for comfort, but she's able to shoot a box or two at a time and can work the slide fairly easily.
Things that don't work:
Small revolvers as mentioned...
Makarov. She can't work the slide and the recoil is barely tolerable. She can only shoot a few rounds through it before her hands give out. The heel-clip mag release is too stiff for her to work.
All my other 9mms either recoil too much, or have springs too stiff for her to operate.
Sorry for the rant--it just gets a bit irritating for me, knowing what I do about this topic, to hear people being steered down the wrong path, OVER and OVER again...
What's even more irritating is to see good advice given but contradicted by others who obviously don't understand the situation clearly.
Good shooting,
John
One more thing, this isn't about all women by any means--my sister has a model 60 that she loves. But, she's not recoil sensitive and doesn't have any unusual problems with her hands.
At least your spouse will shoot SOMETHING!
John: My wife of 30 years is 5'-4" 120 lbs with arthritic thumbs so shooting anything is also a chore for her. I actually did get her to the range to shoot .38 loads in my 32 oz .357 mag. She kept every round on the paper at 10 yards and I was really proud of her. HOWEVER, She absolutely refuses to carry anything for self defense and does not like guns of any kind. John: consider yourself lucky that your spouse will, at least, carry something.....anything.
John: My wife of 30 years is 5'-4" 120 lbs with arthritic thumbs so shooting anything is also a chore for her. I actually did get her to the range to shoot .38 loads in my 32 oz .357 mag. She kept every round on the paper at 10 yards and I was really proud of her. HOWEVER, She absolutely refuses to carry anything for self defense and does not like guns of any kind. John: consider yourself lucky that your spouse will, at least, carry something.....anything.
Salt said:
"A small revolver chambered in a .357 magnum is a bad idea, but a small revolver chambered in .38 S&W... would be easy to shoot."
I disagree. I suggest using a small revolver chambered in .357, BUT shooting .38 Spcl out of it. Just because it's a .357 doesn't mean you have to actually shoot .357 out of it. And the .357 revolver is likely to be a bit heavier than its .38 Spcl cousin, thus reducing perceived recoil given the same ammo.
JohnKsa:
I agree with you on the .380 Govt. model. My wife has one and likes it. It is soft recoiling and the recoil spring is light. Unfortunately, no longer in production and hard to find.
As I said, if a .38 is too much recoil, then a .22lr revolver like a S&W 317 with a lightend trigger often works.
I don't have any experience with the Kel-tec P32, since it has never been sold in MA.
The key in this is to have them choose for themselves. You and your wife have found what works for you. But just because something doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for other people.
glockgazda:
The K9 certainly is the right size and the trigger pull isn't too heavy. Unfortunately, even with the reduced power recoil spring, my women students still often have trouble with it. In particular, they are unable to lock the slide open. And putting it back together after field-stripping can be a chore -- I suspect that non-captured recoil spring would be very difficult for many women. (That's not a problem for my wife -- her solution is to have me clean her guns
) Some of my friends over at Aware http://www.aware.org have had good luck training women on a S&W 3913, but I suspect the long, heavy DA trigger pull might be tough for some.
If the semi-auto has an exposed hammer that can be thumbcocked (e.g., Sig P239), then they can cock the hammer manually before racking the slide.
M1911
"A small revolver chambered in a .357 magnum is a bad idea, but a small revolver chambered in .38 S&W... would be easy to shoot."
I disagree. I suggest using a small revolver chambered in .357, BUT shooting .38 Spcl out of it. Just because it's a .357 doesn't mean you have to actually shoot .357 out of it. And the .357 revolver is likely to be a bit heavier than its .38 Spcl cousin, thus reducing perceived recoil given the same ammo.
JohnKsa:
I agree with you on the .380 Govt. model. My wife has one and likes it. It is soft recoiling and the recoil spring is light. Unfortunately, no longer in production and hard to find.
As I said, if a .38 is too much recoil, then a .22lr revolver like a S&W 317 with a lightend trigger often works.
I don't have any experience with the Kel-tec P32, since it has never been sold in MA.
The key in this is to have them choose for themselves. You and your wife have found what works for you. But just because something doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for other people.
glockgazda:
The K9 certainly is the right size and the trigger pull isn't too heavy. Unfortunately, even with the reduced power recoil spring, my women students still often have trouble with it. In particular, they are unable to lock the slide open. And putting it back together after field-stripping can be a chore -- I suspect that non-captured recoil spring would be very difficult for many women. (That's not a problem for my wife -- her solution is to have me clean her guns
) Some of my friends over at Aware http://www.aware.org have had good luck training women on a S&W 3913, but I suspect the long, heavy DA trigger pull might be tough for some.If the semi-auto has an exposed hammer that can be thumbcocked (e.g., Sig P239), then they can cock the hammer manually before racking the slide.
M1911
Steve Smith
New member
Paradigm shift
Ladies, would you like to have a pistol designed just for you? What I'm talking about is a 9mm semi-automatic with the smallest grip possible and the trigger closer to your palm than a traditional gun? The trigger would also be much lighter.
Just wondering.
Ladies, would you like to have a pistol designed just for you? What I'm talking about is a 9mm semi-automatic with the smallest grip possible and the trigger closer to your palm than a traditional gun? The trigger would also be much lighter.
Just wondering.
Steve -- don't make the trigger too light. Women also worry more than men, and the last thing we'd want is the possibility of a gun actually just 'going off'
You'd probably be better off tailoring to specific women. Our preferences, sizes and strengths vary like you wouldn't believe.
You'd probably be better off tailoring to specific women. Our preferences, sizes and strengths vary like you wouldn't believe.
genuinejewell
New member
When can you start??
Steve,
When can you start on this gun???
Keep us posted.
~gj~
Steve,
When can you start on this gun???
Keep us posted.
~gj~
GO STEVE GO! I don't mind the D/A trigger pull at all. Like Lizzi said, you'd be surprised at how much we ladies vary in our gun preferences.
Here are what I'd like in a woman's gun:
1. I'd like a slide that was slightly easier to rack than my Makarov 19# spring.
2. Gun with a slightly smaller frame for easier concealing on a woman's curvy figure, but not too lightweight as to recoil too much.
3. But what I'd REALLY LOVE is a change in placement of the mag and slide stop levers. I'd like these levers positioned where I could actually reach them with my strong side thumb. I've only found one gun where I could actually drop a mag without using two hands. (the Walther P99 with the ambidextrous mag release located just under the trigger guard)
Go for it!
Shoeless
Here are what I'd like in a woman's gun:
1. I'd like a slide that was slightly easier to rack than my Makarov 19# spring.
2. Gun with a slightly smaller frame for easier concealing on a woman's curvy figure, but not too lightweight as to recoil too much.
3. But what I'd REALLY LOVE is a change in placement of the mag and slide stop levers. I'd like these levers positioned where I could actually reach them with my strong side thumb. I've only found one gun where I could actually drop a mag without using two hands. (the Walther P99 with the ambidextrous mag release located just under the trigger guard)
Go for it!
Shoeless
Hey John,
My wife and I trying to find a CCW gun for her. She also has problems with the DA pull on revolvers and racking the slides on most autos. Thanks for bringing up the .380 Colt Mustang. I never would have considered it, but if the slide is easier to work, it's worth us hunting one down and trying out.
My wife and I trying to find a CCW gun for her. She also has problems with the DA pull on revolvers and racking the slides on most autos. Thanks for bringing up the .380 Colt Mustang. I never would have considered it, but if the slide is easier to work, it's worth us hunting one down and trying out.
Why carry a beefy .357 revolver for .38 Special loads? It is just extra bulk, extra weight and if its not stoked with .357 loads then its not really a Magnum anyway.
Remember that SHE has to pack it around. A larger man may have no problem with packing a .357 magnum frame revolver, but the little lady could use a more trim package.
Thus I bring up the .38 revolvers which are generally more trim than the magnum revolvers.
A S&W M10 with standard .38 loads (No +P loads) will do fine.
If the .38 Special is too much gun for the little lady, then go with a S&W Victory model in .38 S&W cartridge which are softer shooting. Be sure to get the DA revolver over to a competent gunsmith for an action job.
Another option would be a S&W .32 hand ejector or a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R Magnum.
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/rvnew.html
Remember that SHE has to pack it around. A larger man may have no problem with packing a .357 magnum frame revolver, but the little lady could use a more trim package.
Thus I bring up the .38 revolvers which are generally more trim than the magnum revolvers.
A S&W M10 with standard .38 loads (No +P loads) will do fine.
If the .38 Special is too much gun for the little lady, then go with a S&W Victory model in .38 S&W cartridge which are softer shooting. Be sure to get the DA revolver over to a competent gunsmith for an action job.
Another option would be a S&W .32 hand ejector or a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R Magnum.
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/rvnew.html
Salt:
Well, the model 10 is certainly a fine gun. But as it is a K-frame, it won't work for most of my women students. As I mentioned earlier, it's just too big for their hands -- they can't reach the trigger comfortably.
Concerning "the extra bulk, extra weight" of a .357 revolver, again, I will disagree with you. The model 10 is listed on S&W's web site as weighing 36 oz. A 4" model 66 (K-frame .357) is only 37 oz. Just where is the extra bulk and weight that you were talking about?
Besides, I recommend a model 60 anyways (stainless J-frame) and it's only 24 oz.
M1911
Well, the model 10 is certainly a fine gun. But as it is a K-frame, it won't work for most of my women students. As I mentioned earlier, it's just too big for their hands -- they can't reach the trigger comfortably.
Concerning "the extra bulk, extra weight" of a .357 revolver, again, I will disagree with you. The model 10 is listed on S&W's web site as weighing 36 oz. A 4" model 66 (K-frame .357) is only 37 oz. Just where is the extra bulk and weight that you were talking about?
Besides, I recommend a model 60 anyways (stainless J-frame) and it's only 24 oz.
M1911
I find it interesting, after the original post stated the lady couldn't use small revolvers, how many of you turn right around and suggest "some other version" of a small revolver.
I have quit recommending revolvers to my CCW classes as the first choice. If that is an individual's personal choice, more power to them, but it isn't my first recomendation. This is based on my last six years in Law Enforcement as my department's chief firearms instructor, when I was responsable for training 400 armed personnel. Since retirement I have been teaching CCW classes and have gone over 600 students.
Double action revolvers are difficult for most people to master and the small (2" barrel, five shot) 38's are very difficult. I consider them weapons for experts, not beginners. Chambering one of these tiny, lightweight guns for the 357 Mag cartridge is silly, in my opinion.
My recommendation is for a medium sized 9mm semiauto, with a consistant trigger pull (DAO or Safe Action, even Single Action with proper training).
As to the problem of "racking the slide", I have been able to teach most women in my classes how to do this with proper techinque. And, realisticly how much of a problem is this? The gun should be loaded to begin with. A husband or significant other can do this if necessary. If the lady shoots the gun dry in a selfdefense situation and needs to reload the slide will be locked back. If she has time to reload at all, she can insert a magazine and release the slide. It is much easier to release a slide that is locked open that to open the slide of a closed, empty pistol.
Little guns are easy to carry and conceal, however they are hard for everyone to shoot well. Since getting hits is the number one objective in a defensive shooting I have never been able to understand why little guns are so popular, unless people don't actually shoot them, just carry them. They seem to think they can shoot them well "if they need to" although my experience is they can't.
I have quit recommending revolvers to my CCW classes as the first choice. If that is an individual's personal choice, more power to them, but it isn't my first recomendation. This is based on my last six years in Law Enforcement as my department's chief firearms instructor, when I was responsable for training 400 armed personnel. Since retirement I have been teaching CCW classes and have gone over 600 students.
Double action revolvers are difficult for most people to master and the small (2" barrel, five shot) 38's are very difficult. I consider them weapons for experts, not beginners. Chambering one of these tiny, lightweight guns for the 357 Mag cartridge is silly, in my opinion.
My recommendation is for a medium sized 9mm semiauto, with a consistant trigger pull (DAO or Safe Action, even Single Action with proper training).
As to the problem of "racking the slide", I have been able to teach most women in my classes how to do this with proper techinque. And, realisticly how much of a problem is this? The gun should be loaded to begin with. A husband or significant other can do this if necessary. If the lady shoots the gun dry in a selfdefense situation and needs to reload the slide will be locked back. If she has time to reload at all, she can insert a magazine and release the slide. It is much easier to release a slide that is locked open that to open the slide of a closed, empty pistol.
Little guns are easy to carry and conceal, however they are hard for everyone to shoot well. Since getting hits is the number one objective in a defensive shooting I have never been able to understand why little guns are so popular, unless people don't actually shoot them, just carry them. They seem to think they can shoot them well "if they need to" although my experience is they can't.
Dave T:
Well, if you scroll up a bit, you'll see that I recommend a 3" barreled model 60. It's stainless steel (not an airweight) and has a real rear sight.
I agree with you about 2" lightweight revolvers. I've got one and it's not easy to shoot. But that's not what I was recommending. A 3" stainless steel model 60 is a different animal entirely.
M1911
Well, if you scroll up a bit, you'll see that I recommend a 3" barreled model 60. It's stainless steel (not an airweight) and has a real rear sight.
I agree with you about 2" lightweight revolvers. I've got one and it's not easy to shoot. But that's not what I was recommending. A 3" stainless steel model 60 is a different animal entirely.
M1911
Right on the money!
My girl (5' 3" small hands) wanted a revolver so I got her a S&W chief's special. After several months of shooting she was still having trouble hitting the paper at 7 yards. I decided that I wanted her to hit her target should anyone try anything on her, so I got her a Glock 33 (357SIG) instead. She absolutely LOVES it!! Now she's shooting for bullseyes at 15 yards.
And I feel like the Glock 33 is more concealable that the tiny .38 revolver. She wears the Glock in an SOB holster. She's very comfortable with that rig. And she now has 10 rounds instead of 5.
My girl (5' 3" small hands) wanted a revolver so I got her a S&W chief's special. After several months of shooting she was still having trouble hitting the paper at 7 yards. I decided that I wanted her to hit her target should anyone try anything on her, so I got her a Glock 33 (357SIG) instead. She absolutely LOVES it!! Now she's shooting for bullseyes at 15 yards.
And I feel like the Glock 33 is more concealable that the tiny .38 revolver. She wears the Glock in an SOB holster. She's very comfortable with that rig. And she now has 10 rounds instead of 5.
I noted she tried the Beretta 85 with the tipping barrel in .380 and seemed to like it. Seems to me like that one would be the best all around choice:
- Tipping barrel means no need to rack the slide to chamber or remove a round.
- Fairly heafty at I believe around 23oz or so - but similar in weight to a steel frame .38 snub.
- Fairly minimal recoil, certainly no more than a standard pressure .38 in a steel frame snub revolver (or 9mm in a medium frame auto). Also fairly low flash and blast, but still a reasonably powerful defence round.
- Single stack magazine so the grip is small enough to accomidate small hands - but still enough length to get a good grip.
- Overall dimentions are just slightly larger than a snub .38, so still reasonably concealable.
- Simple to operate. Proven reliable design that's been around for years. The little Colts are no longer in production. Even when they were they weren't as relaible as the Berettas out of the box and required custom smithing. The Kel-Tec P32 is one of those with ongoing mixed reviews. Some are 100% reliable and others are somewhat less than satisfactory. Their primary claim to fame is extream light weight and small size for the caliber. Also the Colt Mustang and P32's are pretty small and light - and the old "limp wristing" thing seems to be an issue with some regarding proper feeding and ejection.
I tend to be a revolver fan for the reasons of reliability and wide variety of bullet / loading options. I have no problems with most any handgun of any caliber though. But given the limitations of hand / arm strength and sensitivity to recoil - it just seems like the Model 85 Beretta would be an ideal fit.
- Tipping barrel means no need to rack the slide to chamber or remove a round.
- Fairly heafty at I believe around 23oz or so - but similar in weight to a steel frame .38 snub.
- Fairly minimal recoil, certainly no more than a standard pressure .38 in a steel frame snub revolver (or 9mm in a medium frame auto). Also fairly low flash and blast, but still a reasonably powerful defence round.
- Single stack magazine so the grip is small enough to accomidate small hands - but still enough length to get a good grip.
- Overall dimentions are just slightly larger than a snub .38, so still reasonably concealable.
- Simple to operate. Proven reliable design that's been around for years. The little Colts are no longer in production. Even when they were they weren't as relaible as the Berettas out of the box and required custom smithing. The Kel-Tec P32 is one of those with ongoing mixed reviews. Some are 100% reliable and others are somewhat less than satisfactory. Their primary claim to fame is extream light weight and small size for the caliber. Also the Colt Mustang and P32's are pretty small and light - and the old "limp wristing" thing seems to be an issue with some regarding proper feeding and ejection.
I tend to be a revolver fan for the reasons of reliability and wide variety of bullet / loading options. I have no problems with most any handgun of any caliber though. But given the limitations of hand / arm strength and sensitivity to recoil - it just seems like the Model 85 Beretta would be an ideal fit.
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I agree with 1911. I have found that even on the aluminum frame snubs, recoil is greatly reduced with the Uncle Mike's boot grips that come standard on S&W now. Felt recoil is much less than with wood grips, and much less than with Hogue rubber grips. Some Jframes come with good triggers, others do not. I have found the Wolff spring kits do not harm reliability what so ever. A gunsmith can smooth the trigger. My understanding is that the Jframe trigger cannot match a tuned Kframe, but till can be quite good. So lets consider some possibilities for men or women: 3 inch model 65, 2.5 inch model 66, 3 inch Jframe, or 2 inch Jframe, all with rubber boot grips. Tuned trigger, new springs, good grips. Use standard .38 special instead of plus P if necessary. Try Federal Nyclads for low recoil. I do not see how a semi-auto is better for a beginner. Loading magazines is difficult for many. Racking the slide can be. Understanding how to clear jams, all the intricacies of various safeties - ok with more experience, but why to begin with?
I agree with John's original thought. I took some young women to the range and let them try my 442 and Glock 19. They hated the 442. The Glock was big for some of the time.
As far as recoil, there are some very mild 38 wadcutters out there.
I know that is against the stopping power grain but whatever works.
I had a 317LS that I thought my wife might like but the pull was crappy and neither of us were very accurate with it. Rather than play with the springs which I read is an iffy thing with rimfires, I sold it.
I wonder if the larger 32ACPS like the Walthers and Sigs are good guns for women that can't make it up to the larger calibers?
As far as recoil, there are some very mild 38 wadcutters out there.
I know that is against the stopping power grain but whatever works.
I had a 317LS that I thought my wife might like but the pull was crappy and neither of us were very accurate with it. Rather than play with the springs which I read is an iffy thing with rimfires, I sold it.
I wonder if the larger 32ACPS like the Walthers and Sigs are good guns for women that can't make it up to the larger calibers?