Small revolvers and women...

[JohnKSa]

I typically make it a point to read threads about "guns suitable for women" since my wife has a medical condition which results in low hand strength and an unusual sensitivity to recoil.

Inevitably, a gaggle of posters immediately respond suggesting compact revolvers--typically in .38 or .357.

Pardon me, but that is COMPLETE AND UNADULTERATED CRAP!!!!!

Anyone who's ever shot one of those little monsters knows that they are absolutely NOT a good gun for someone who is recoil shy. To top it off, the new crop of lawyer designed guns often have DA trigger pulls that are so hard that they exceed any sense of reasonable. Also NOT a good choice for someone with low hand strength.

Then, if someone dares to argue the points I listed above, the group turns to castigating the person in question for not just exercising to strengthen their hands or for not acclimatizing themselves to recoil.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY PURE GARBAGE!
Many people, like my wife, have medical conditions that preclude strenuous exercise, or are simply not endowed with the genetic potential to deal with problems like these in the same way a healthy adult male can. Lisa loves to shoot and exercises regularly, but there are some things she's just not ever going to be capable of--just like many other people out there.

I'm sick to death of hearing this type of worthless drivel foisted off on people as if it were anything approaching useful advice.

Now, I am well aware that not every woman has hand strength issues, and am also well aware that many men do, so please, let's keep the feminism in the responses to a minimum. I'm not making any blanket statements about the abilities of men and women, just pointing out what I see as a pattern of consistently POOR advice.

Good shooting,

John

 

[Salt]

Agreed on the .357 Magnum chambering. I recall one fellow was worried that a .38 Special would not penetrate a heavy jacket. This mindset is what I call Magnum mania.

Many women will be much better served with a .38 Special revolver, 4" barrel (S&W M10). Others would do better to have a revolver chambered in .38 S&W or .32 H&R Magnum. Again, 4" barrel is optimum.

After the lady gets in some practice and becomes proficient, she may then be able to move up to a 2.5" barrel revolver for its greater concealability.

 

[Salt]

Other Options

Colt Police Positive (4" barrel)

S&W J frame (3" barrel)

If the .38 Special is too much, go for .38 S&W chambering or .32 caliber.

 

[tubeshooter]

Eh, don't be too hard on 'em... I think a lot of people mean well and just offer the advice based on their own gun experience, rather than "walking in another's shoes", so to speak.

I can empathize with what you say, though. I think nothing of the trigger pull on my .38 snub, but I let a petite woman try to dry fire it once and it was all she could do to get the trigger halfway back. Not trying to generalize or anything, just demonstrating different needs for different folks.

You talk to 20 gun enthusiasts, and I'll bet for 17 or 18 of them factory mild .38 = low recoil. You talk to these same 20 enthusiasts, and the same 17 or 18 wouldn't recommend anything below .38 to bet your life on in good conscience. 19 of these 20 will be male, if not all of them, more than likely.

I think that's where it all stems from, basically. Of course, how well one can shoot a gun isn't simply a function of recoil (to say nothing of the next man's sense of it), & a dip below "baseline" caliber-wise might be acceptable if it's going to allow you to actually hit your target.

Like I said though, intentions are probably very sincere and good.

Maybe a largish .32 fits the bill for somebody with such special needs gun-wise. Seems like a reasonable suggestion.

[EDIT: Forgot to mention that the simpler manual-of-arms for a wheelgun probably contributes to women being pushed in this direction.]

-tubeshooter

 

[croyance]

Small pistols generally seem to have more recoil for the caliber than larger guns. Small grip does not equate to small recoil.

 

[coz]

My bride first shot a J Frame .38.

Hated the pain.

Switched to at 9mm P95 Ruger. Loves it.

She'll probably carry the J Frame for Self Defense or a Keltec p32 or p11.

As my CHL instructor said "Learn to shoot the carry gun, but don't take it to the range every other weekend. It's for self defense not practice"

Before all of you start getting off on practicing with your carry weapon, remember, a J-Frame .38 is pretty uncomplicated and the chance of a full fledged reloading gunfight is about a million times as slim as even needing to pull out the .38 in defense.

My 1/50th of a dollar

Cheers

 

[Jay Baker]

In the situation referred here, I suggest a good, S&W .22 L.R. Kit Gun.

Six, High Speed Hollow Points in a puke's chest, neck and face, will definitely make him think seriously about taking up a different profession.

I know specifically of two women who used .22 revolvers, to kill pukes who were attacking them.

Anyone notice that big, burly, Secret Service agent dropping like a sack of shelled corn, when Hinckley shot at President Reagan??? One round of .22 L.R.

If the .38s and 9mms are too stout, go to a .22 and LEARN TO SHOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I think everyone oughta learn to shoot on .22s, anyway.)

JMHO. J.B.

 

[Ala Dan]

Another suggestion-

John, how about the compact Bersa Thunder .380?
Good gun, at an affordable price; that should offer
a compromise to your wife's medical condition.
I know you said, "women and small revolver's";
but I believe that this may be your best bet.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

 

[Pistole]

Small Women & Pistols.

Yeah , i love both :-

(a) Small women ( mine is tiny ) , and

(b) small guns ( mine is a 22 Cal ).

LOL.

20th Feb 2002.

 

[glockgazda]

He just finished biatching about getting "small revo for small woman" adivce, then he gets more of the same.

Facts are, average woman has much less HAND and ARM strength than average guy. Add tendonitis or similar in the equation and it gets even worse.

I'd guess most people recommend small revolvers due to simplicity of training to get bare minimum of proficiency, and tolerance for neglect. They forget that not only do they recoil more, but also generaly got heavier trigger pulls than K or L frames.

Then you have problems with racking the slide on pistols.

Some guns that come to mind:

Kel-Tec P32, Kahr K9 (with reduced weight recoil spring), Glock 26, Colt Mustang, Colt Govt .380, 9mm 1911 commander size, ...

Keep in mind that on SA guns that I listed it's much easier to rack the slide once the hammer is cocked.

 

[notbubba]

coz

Did the j-frame have wood or rubber grips?
I switched my Lady Smith's pretty wood grips to Hogue Bantam and it felt better to shoot.

 

[C.R.Sam]

I advocate tryin as many as possible and let the lady chose.

I also suggest Medium frames in .38spec. More gun weight = less recoil and more fun to shoot. Therefore more shootin and more proficiency.

Model 10, 19 etc with round butt seems to work with small hands, good trigger job makes em easy to use double action. Just cause it says .357 mag on the barrel doesn't mean you have to use that. .38 special works great.

Many choices but she should choose.

Sam

 

[CastleBravo]

Uh... somebody says .38 SPL revolvers are unpleasant to shoot, so somebody suggests a little blowback .380 instead?

 

[Shoeless]

I am chiming in as a woman here...

When I was researching buying my first handgun I was told all the same stuff, John. What I found was that even though the small revolvers are cute and they might feel okay in the hand and you'd imagine they'd be great to conceal and carry, they are a bear to shoot because of the small size. Add to that an alloy frame that is super lightweight, and it's even worse. Great to carry, sucks to shoot. So if it sucks to shoot and she won't practice with it because it hurts, is it the best option? Maybe. Maybe not. I found that I hate the .38 and .357 snubs. A larger frame and longer barrel will help some, but I guess it depends what you're looking for.

Is it a CARRY gun she is wanting or just a handgun for home/car protection? If she's looking to carry, that will be a bit tougher of a bill to fill, as the carry guns by definition should be smaller in order to conceal more easily. So here we have a Catch-22 of sorts. You want a gun small enough to carry but not one that hurts to shoot.

My PERSONAL feeling is that small revolvers are not comfortable to shoot and perhaps she might consider an autopistol. You can get them small enough to carry and although I don't have much experience with too many different ones, you might suggest a .380 or a .32 caliber. Yes, the power factor is a bit less than the 9mm and quite a bit less than the .40 but you have to consider that a smaller caliber that she can shoot well is better than a larger caliber that she can't shoot well or won't practice with.

As far as the slide rack and arm strength, that is something I can't address personally, I just don't remember all the different types of guns I've played with to tell you which might be easier. You might get more help from someone else in that regard.

The other thing to consider is having two guns. One for carry, which she could practice with periodically and one larger and less recoil for target shooting. Good luck and keep us posted.

Shoeless

 

[Brian Busch]

Folks, it depends on what the use of the gun is. I mean, if it's CCW, thats one thing; plinking another.

Seriously. If a lightweight .38 is too much due to recoil (first the person asking the question aught to say that to begin with) then there are other options, and a tiny blowback .380 aint one of 'em, as CB stated.

If it was my wife, and she just wants to plink, then a midsize 22 auto would be my choice. If defense is also needed, maybe a a midsize 380 like a Colt Government .380 would be a better fit, especially since it's single action.

There are so many handguns out there, got to be one that fits your wife. Don't slam folks for trying to help.

 

[M1911]

JohnKsa:

I teach NRA Basic Pistol classes. A number of my students have been women. In the past year, two of the women that I've taught have been 60+, both had very little strength, and one of them had severe arthritis in her hands.

But I still disagree with you.

First, most of my women students haven't had hands large enough for a medium-frame revolver like a S&W 19 or Ruger GP100. Their fingers simply aren't long enough to reach the trigger, particularly the double-action trigger.

Second, many of them do not have the strength to operate the slides on many semi-autos.

Do I suggest an airweight with a 2" barrel? OF COURSE NOT! I have a S&W 642 (aluminum frame, 2" barrel) and it's both hard to shoot and painfull as well.

Instead, I set them up with a 3" S&W Model 60 firing low power .38s. The 60 is a stainless gun so it is reasonably heavy. As a result, recoil isn't bad with .38s, provided you stay away from the 158gr +P loadings. The 3" barrel and good rear sight makes it easier to shoot accurately. A Ruger SP101 with 3" barrel would work as well.

I've recently purchased a S&W 317 kit gun, with 3" barrel. It's a .22lr, it's very light, and it has next to no recoil. If someone is recoil shy, start them with a .22lr.

Yes, the factory triggers are too heavy. But that is easily fixed by most any gunsmith and is not expensive to have done. If you're a do-it-yourself type, with a few tools and Jerry K.'s book, you can replace the springs and polish the rebound slide. I've done 3 J-frames in the past couple weeks and it's not hard, provided you don't touch the sears themselves. The result is a pretty decent trigger that's not heavy.

Shoeless:

I certainly would NOT recommend a NAA .32. It may be small, but mine hurts to shoot. I don't have much experience with direct blowback centerfire semi-autos, but the ones I have fired are not fun at all.

M1911

PS: We can disagree without calling someone else's statements "drivel", "garbage", "crap", etc.

 

[Shoeless]

M1911: I am only speaking from my own experience with my gun, which is a Makarov (small frame, centerfire, blowback semiauto 9x18) I have no recoil issues at all, but perhaps the women in question would, which is why I thought that my gun only in a lesser caliber would be even easier to handle. I defer to your experience, of course.

Shoeless

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

John....

A .32 H&R magnum revolver has little recoil and is "a stronger" round than a regular, non + P .38 special. These little revolvers hold six instead of five also. Tamara and Lendringser have Taurus 731's which they think a lot of. (They've also got this strange relationship with hardwood grips. ) Six rounds of light recoiling and very potent 85 grain JHP would be difficult for a "bad guy" to deal with. S&W makes a snub that weighs only 11.9 ounces (mine) in this caliber. (Very difficult to find used though, and because of the light weight...more recoil.)
Ruger makes a couple of revolvers chambered for .32 mag which are heavy enough to absorb the recoil nicely. To me (and I realize this is subjective), a Ruger .32 mag feels like a .22 mag.
Good luck in your search and let me know what SHE decide's on. (It's far less expensive to let the lady pick her OWN pistol. It only took me about $1500.00 before the thought finally occured to me!)

Kentucky Rifle

 

[D.W. Drang]

In the most recent NRA Basic Pistol class I helped teach, we had a couple who showed up with HER 1911 and HIS .38 snubbie.
We wound up begging her to join the team--WHAT A SHOT!
He...didn't do so good.
Until we convinced him to try the .45. He was astonished by how easy it was to shot, how gentle it was. Apparently he'd been suckered by all the stories he heard in the Navy about how the .45 was an uncontrollable beast, take your arm off, etc.
One thing I am now set up to do is demonstrate just what a differance grips and loads can make--LSW and I each have Charter Arms Bulldogs, if we put the barami Hip Grips on one-- OUCH! --and Pachmayer Grippers on the other...

 

[M1911]

Shoeless:

I haven't had the chance to try a Makarov, and, unfortunately, given current MA law, likely won't in the near future.

M1911