slug "placement" is BS

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Deaf Smith

New member
Hardin,

4 shots per attacker to max shock? Sure hope while you are quad tapping your opponent, presuming you never miss one of those 4 shots, the attacker has no friends about. This is why they search for the 'one shot' stop load. One can not spend all day plugging one BG.

Deaf
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
You're right, slug placement is BS.

That's why I just fire wildly in any direction I can.

Everyone knows that it's the muzzle blast that incapacitates your attacker.
 
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Elvis

New member
Tim:

Let me assure you, I am not Mr. Hardin.

I have reread Mr. Hardin's post and I am at loss to fathom why he as received such harsh response. Can anyone point to a specific aspect of what he has written that is out of line?

Until we meet you again,
E
 
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riverdog

New member
Not having any first-hand knowledge...

I was fortunate during my time in service to not have to shoot anyone or get shot and I don't make myself an easy target so ... The LEO who initiated me to defensive shooting during a shooting clinic always said two to the chest and one to the head if necessary. It sounded good 18 years ago and it still seems reasonable.

The other thing I've learned is to use the biggest load you can shoot consistently well. This doesn't mean .44 Magnums 'cause most of us have no follow-up shots, but it can mean .45ACP. For some it might be 9mm but I see no reason for anyone to go lighter than .38+P 'cause even my girlfriend shoots that well from an SP-101 -- but I've seen police pistols in .32, whatever ... I like .45 ACP.

Regardless of the load, to maximize its effect (there is no such thing as over-kill), bullet placement isn't BS. You need to hit major organs or seriously disrupt the nervous system or both. Lawdog's dissertation above is convincing regarding COM shots. Surely a head shot to the brain stem would be better, but can you do that consistently on a moving target? I can't, so I go back to what sounds reasonable -- two chest, one head, repeat as required.
 
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krept

New member
hook, line and sinker.

Well, the title is BS. Maybe he intended it to say that "Worrying about proper shot placement is going to kill you unless you do it instinctively, with a clear head."

Saying "shot placement is BS" as a statement (unless for fame) just doesn't cut it!

If I were hit with a well placed bullet, the only "BS" I would be thinking about would be "BS I don't want to go out like this!"

The fact of the matter is this, plain and simple. If you are worried about your bullet and caliber choice, your tactics, your mindset, etc then you are going to get upset by threads like this. How much weight do you give someone else's opinions?

For me, the title of this thread is really Laugh Out Loud funny :D. It's as if we are to say "Oh my! What are we going to do now that we cant even count on shot placement!?" all of a sudden and continue reading as if inside, the magic answer to all out insecurities will be found.

I mean, the person that is typing under the name Hardin is a clever and intelligent individual for sure and I have no doubt that these figures ARE coming off the top of his head; obviously he's done a lot of thinking.

There are posts which seek information, those that seek to inform and those intended as bait. I think it's all up the reader to distinguish between the different types.
 
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Elvis

New member
Hi Dr45ACP:

I like your moniker! By the way, is it true there are other calibers that one can use for defense? Boy, will that start sparks aflyin'!

While it may be true that Mr. Hardin might have come across as cautic, it is what one says, or in this medium, writes, that is of most concern to me. How one express himself (read: gender neutral) can be ascribed to many aspects of life; e.g., culture.

Anyway, from reading his post, Mr. Hardin does appear to have knowledge of tactics beyond that of the average gun writer.


Where's my Blue Suede Shoes???

God Bless You and Adios,
E

P.S. I love playing Elvis on cyber stage!!! He was a gun aficionado, you know.
 
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Jeff Thomas

New member
This logic seems a bit strained.

I gather the argument is that we have no time to aim, and a poorly aimed hit to COM is unlikely to stop the BG quickly, so we should therefore aim for a smaller target / CNS? This makes no sense, IMHO.

Seems to me, the premise is correct, but I'm still left concluding that COM is the most logical initial target. If that fails, then CNS is the next target. I'd rather get a mediocre hit COM, then a complete miss somewhere around the BG's head.

It's dangerous to make policy based upon the exceptions. From what I've read, I don't think most BG's shrug off a bullet wherever it hits, and simply keep coming.

COM still makes sense to me.

Regards from AZ
 
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Incursion

New member
How many times are we going to discuss the same thing? Points that have been said over and over:

- shoot the biggest caliber you feel comfortable shooting
- handgun rounds may not take a man down in one shot
- mindset is an important factor
- practice, practice, practice (practice with stress)
- there is no magic round or caliber
- shoot until the assailant drops
- run if possible
- there is an anecdote for every contention
 
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JWR

New member
That's it. I'm going to quit carrying a gun and build me a lightsaber. And find me that oriental martial arts instructor from "Remo Williams". Once I can dodge bullets and cut somebody in half, I can finally walk the streets in comfort.
 
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45King

New member
Don't let the doorknob hit you in the arse.....

...on your way out, Mr. H.

John Wesley Hardin: "Over 40 men killed, not countin' Mezcins and injuns." Just like the claim of his "namesake", Hardin turns out to be so much fluff.
 
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WESHOOT2

New member
Hardin,


Fortunately, and so far, I've been LUCKY.

I always prefer being lucky to being good. Wish I was as lucky during matches...
 
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Mazoica

New member
Mr. Hardin:

Perhaps, all of us do not identify ourselves as the victim, but rather see ourselves as the victor. I have shot many bear at close range and on the ground with a .357 magnum handgun. To think we will simply turn to a mass of quivering nerves and not be able to place our shots, in my opinion is where the fertilizer comes into play.

I beg to differ with you about follow up shots with a .357 magnum. If you think your scenario of a man with a three sided stick is hard to deal with, try a bear at ten feet. I'm still here, so I don't worry too much about a man with a stick when I have my 28-2.

Mazoica
 
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Elvis

New member
I know that many posters here are of the position that in self defense encounters shot placement is paramount. While I will concede the importance of shot placement, there are other more critical aspects to consider in use of deadly force situations.

I keep reading this "spray and pray" cliche; what does it maen? To whom would one be praying? And what type of intervention would one evolke? What is one spraying?


Elvis has left the forum,
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Elvis,

Spray and pray means that you spray bullets wildly around the landscape, praying to whatever God(s) you see fit that one of them actually finds its mark.

This concept really came into its own when high-capacity semi-autos started replacing revolvers as the de riguer weapon of choice.

Best example I can think of is two DEA agents coming out of the bar in old town Alexandria, Virginia, a couple of years ago to find someone breaking into their car. Supposedly he showed a knife, and they showed lead, something like 35 rounds in about 3 seconds.

Perp's only wound was from a fragment that struck the car & bounced off.

A friend tells me (he's in a position to know) that one of the agents took early retirement rather than face the raft'o'crap that was created over this, while the other one rode a desk for a couple of years.
 
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ctdonath

New member
Spray-and-pray

How most untrained/unpracticed (or minimally so) people with guns shoot: point gun (without aiming), pull trigger, repeat until ammo is gone. The idea is to just shoot enough rounds that one bullet is statistically likely to hit the intended target.

Anecdotes:

Cooper described a case where a group of cops felt compelled to fire at some criminal, and unloaded about a THOUSAND rounds in his direction. The criminal, uninjured, surrendered.

In Vietnam, somewhere between 20,000 and 200,000 rounds were fired by US troops for each enemy killed.
 
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Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
ctdonath said: In Vietnam, somewhere between
20,000 and 200,000 rounds were fired by US troops for each
enemy killed.
Click to expand...

Where do the above stats come from?

While I can't say for anywhere except my little corner of the jungle, we simply couldn't carry that many rounds while doing 3-4 man recon inserts. But then, I was a marine and we didn't get all the stuff the army got. :D

Al.
 
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Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
Antipitas, I think it was actually closer to 50,000, and it's obviously only an estimate. Also, it counts all rounds expended by all services, including artillery, machine gun fire, fire from gunships and boats, helicopters and APC's, I believe. Can't be too accurate, considering how impossible it would be to figure out how many rounds were fired or how many enemy were actually killed.

Hardin, I just don't buy it. Shot placement is more difficult than most people realize, but it's a long way from BS. And as others have said, if it's too difficult/impossible to hit the chest, as you claim, then head shots make no sense at all. You are responsible for every shot, even the one you intended for your mugger that hit a kid down the block. A couple of weeks ago I was practicing on a silhouette and doing pretty well COM, so I did one magazine of head shots--and I missed one, at 7 yds. Missed by less than an inch. It would have been a hit if I'd been aiming COM, and I couldn't help but think about one bullet whizzing past the attacker and going God knows where. It's a chilling feeling.
 
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Al Norris

Moderator Emeritus
Thanks Don, that was kinda my feeling.

Did a month of OP duty around the DaNang rocket perimiter once. Always enjoyed watching Puff do his stuff!

Al.
 
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