Unless the guy is more than 10 ft away, and has no gun, you are going to be LUCKY, to get more than 50% hits on his chest,, and many of those chest hits may well be without immediate effect, if shock doesnt become an issue, because he can continue to operate just FINE for over 5 secs with his heart blown apart. Enough have done so after 12 ga hits for us to know this. One lung being hit means nothing, until he drowns in his own blood, which could take MINUTES. liver or spleen hit, or blood vessel hit can take MANY seconds to bleed him out, while he is shooting or stabbing you at the rate of 4x per sec. So GOOD hits mostlycome from LOTS of shots being fired, by skilled shottists, using low recoil loads, easily controled guns. Trouble, is, sometimes even good hits dont stop the guy. If you can hit the 4" heart, you can also hit the 4" brain, so why not go with what is a LOT more likely to have the instant result needed (if you TRULY think that you can hit the heart, that is.)
slug "placement" is BS
- Thread starter Hardin
- Start date
VictorLouis
New member
Most of us should just sell our guns now, and submit
to whatever attack may come our way. I, for one, don't know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that I can hit that 4" target(you pick) under the stress of an assault. Therefore, since I cannot depend on even a SG, much less a HG to do the job, I should just leave it all to fate. Perhaps a quick prayer in the face of imminent attack may well thwart the BG's intentions?
Gunkid/Hardin: Just what do propose we do? Carry around a bazooka and practice hitting the eye socket?
to whatever attack may come our way. I, for one, don't know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that I can hit that 4" target(you pick) under the stress of an assault. Therefore, since I cannot depend on even a SG, much less a HG to do the job, I should just leave it all to fate. Perhaps a quick prayer in the face of imminent attack may well thwart the BG's intentions?
Gunkid/Hardin: Just what do propose we do? Carry around a bazooka and practice hitting the eye socket?
Johnny Got His Gun.1
New member
I'm with krept on this one. COM. First, always. Then whatever else you can do, which usually means going for the electrical shutdown.
Hardin, just for argument's sake, what would you do, then, if "slug 'placement' is BS"? Yes, I know you propose going for the head shot (4" heart and 4" head and all). Should we forego the use of slugs entirely, and, if so, what type of round should we use?
Help me out here.
Hardin, just for argument's sake, what would you do, then, if "slug 'placement' is BS"? Yes, I know you propose going for the head shot (4" heart and 4" head and all). Should we forego the use of slugs entirely, and, if so, what type of round should we use?
Help me out here.
Deaf Smith
New member
Sorry Hardin, you are way off.
I can recount several shooting cases where the BG was terminated with 100% of shots striking the BGs chest. In fact, I know of one, in NY where a woman cop, using a .38 Smith chiefs, shot 3 robbers, hitting with all 5 shots, disableing all 3 BGs. And the ranges were from 5 to 20 feet. I also personally watched a Texas DPS film, taken from the patrol car as a Trouper had stopped a suspect. The suspect tried to pull a gun. The Trouper, firing his Sig 220 .45, fired one handed, firing one shot, range 15 feet. Hit him in the chest. The BG just did a slumping fall into the high grass. End of BG. Another film, showing three illegals overpowering a constible, took his gun and shot him in the chest. He dropped (the fired one round).
As I understand what you say, everone will just go crackers when attacked and miss like hell. And one lung hit will not phase a BG. Hmmmm, that seems kind of strange as there are quite a few cases of BGs being shot in hand, posterior, arm, and other not so vital places and dropping like flys.
Being stuck with gunfire is both physical and psychological. Neither is well understood.
Guys, keep aiming for the chest for the first round or two, if no effect, head.
Deaf Smith
I can recount several shooting cases where the BG was terminated with 100% of shots striking the BGs chest. In fact, I know of one, in NY where a woman cop, using a .38 Smith chiefs, shot 3 robbers, hitting with all 5 shots, disableing all 3 BGs. And the ranges were from 5 to 20 feet. I also personally watched a Texas DPS film, taken from the patrol car as a Trouper had stopped a suspect. The suspect tried to pull a gun. The Trouper, firing his Sig 220 .45, fired one handed, firing one shot, range 15 feet. Hit him in the chest. The BG just did a slumping fall into the high grass. End of BG. Another film, showing three illegals overpowering a constible, took his gun and shot him in the chest. He dropped (the fired one round).
As I understand what you say, everone will just go crackers when attacked and miss like hell. And one lung hit will not phase a BG. Hmmmm, that seems kind of strange as there are quite a few cases of BGs being shot in hand, posterior, arm, and other not so vital places and dropping like flys.
Being stuck with gunfire is both physical and psychological. Neither is well understood.
Guys, keep aiming for the chest for the first round or two, if no effect, head.
Deaf Smith
Or gets a tension pnuemothorax.
Not exactly.
As others have pointed out before on similar threads of yours, the head moves about quite a bit more than the chest. This makes the head a level harder to hit than the chest.
Plus, if you fire a five inch shot at the head, you've missed by an inch. If you miss the heart by the same amount, you still hit the critter.
A shot at the head has to hit in a triangular area measured from eye to eye and down to the tip of the nose. Anything outside of that doesn't have a real good chance for a stop.
A shot into center-mass might impact on the heart, and that's gravy. If it misses the heart by an inch or so, it still has a good chance of hitting the spine, superior vena cava, aorta, spine again, pulmonary artery, pulmonary vein, and the descending vena cava.
If you miss by two to three inches, you're still hitting the sternum, which is sending bone shrapnel into the mediastinum, with corresponding major blood loss, along with the spine (again), the sub-clavicular nerve bundle (anyone remember the actual name?), the axillary artery, the subclavian artery, the diaphragm, the renal arteries, the kidneys...
You can aim center mass, miss by an inch or so and hit the subclavian artery/aorta/whathaveyou and your opponent is down in under a minute --
or
--you can aim at the head, and if you miss by an inch or so, miss the critter entirely and slay the Mother Superior a block down the street.
LawDog
John Marshall
New member
Hey LawDog, have you been going to Med School nights?
I think you have pretty well covered all the bases in you little physiology synopsis. Good job.
I think you have pretty well covered all the bases in you little physiology synopsis. Good job.
any hit to head is to bone or teeth, essentially,
so "marginal" hits there are more likely to rock his world than hits to gut, or even to chest, really, lettiing you hit him again. I can certainly find LOTS more cases where poor hits and misses are the rule than you can these nice all chest hits. I recommend aiming at chest, repeated at least once, unless the guy is holding still at less than 10 ft, and if a Class A guy is in Weaver, the head is then best. However, I mainly seek to point out that we had all BETTER find the optimally effective load for poor hits, because that same load will obviously be better with good hits. It must also be a load that lets us hit as fast as we can with an SA 22 auto, at least on chest out to 10 ft, and that is certainly not the 357, 44, or .45 Super with conventional jhp loads. In the one second or less that you have before LUCK becomes the main determinant of the outcome, you want to be able to get off at LEAST 4 rds with the maximum shock and tissue destruction, and man, does THAT ever leave out the mag revolvers and the alloy 38's with 158gr +p's, and the alloy .44 specials! most people have trouble getting better than .50 sec splits with those, on 10" at 10 ft, while they can probably get 3-4 per second without much trouble with an SA 9mm, which can actually do more damage and cause more shock if it uses right load.
so "marginal" hits there are more likely to rock his world than hits to gut, or even to chest, really, lettiing you hit him again. I can certainly find LOTS more cases where poor hits and misses are the rule than you can these nice all chest hits. I recommend aiming at chest, repeated at least once, unless the guy is holding still at less than 10 ft, and if a Class A guy is in Weaver, the head is then best. However, I mainly seek to point out that we had all BETTER find the optimally effective load for poor hits, because that same load will obviously be better with good hits. It must also be a load that lets us hit as fast as we can with an SA 22 auto, at least on chest out to 10 ft, and that is certainly not the 357, 44, or .45 Super with conventional jhp loads. In the one second or less that you have before LUCK becomes the main determinant of the outcome, you want to be able to get off at LEAST 4 rds with the maximum shock and tissue destruction, and man, does THAT ever leave out the mag revolvers and the alloy 38's with 158gr +p's, and the alloy .44 specials! most people have trouble getting better than .50 sec splits with those, on 10" at 10 ft, while they can probably get 3-4 per second without much trouble with an SA 9mm, which can actually do more damage and cause more shock if it uses right load.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Hardin, I would really like to know where you get your information. It's rare for one to be so consistantly wrong... Check your sources.You have read all of Cooper's comments - but not his books.
I suggest you do so.
Fast.
I also suggest you read Grey's Anatomy as Law Dog has described in detail.
[Edited by George Hill on 01-06-2001 at 12:31 AM]
I suggest you do so.
Fast.
I also suggest you read Grey's Anatomy as Law Dog has described in detail.
[Edited by George Hill on 01-06-2001 at 12:31 AM]
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Sigh.
Hardin-
Not for nothin', my brother, but is this gonna be another "search for the magic bullet with the time you could be spending on practice" thread? Or another "9mm vs 45" thread? If so, I think you're gonna loose your audience right quick. This is TFL, not rec.guns. We been there; done that.
Rich
ps:
pps: This title of this thread, created by you, is "Slug placement is BS". I didn't notice this at first. Obviously you intended for us to be talking about shotguns. That being the case......ummmmm, what's your point? That it matters where you hit a man with a slug or that it doesn't matter? I shall endeavor to discover the source of my growing confusion.
Hardin-
Not for nothin', my brother, but is this gonna be another "search for the magic bullet with the time you could be spending on practice" thread? Or another "9mm vs 45" thread? If so, I think you're gonna loose your audience right quick. This is TFL, not rec.guns. We been there; done that.
Rich
ps:
Buzzzz...Incorrect. Law Dog has already described an area of the head, approximating 40% of it's ventral surface, that is bounded by nothing but soft tissue.
pps: This title of this thread, created by you, is "Slug placement is BS". I didn't notice this at first. Obviously you intended for us to be talking about shotguns. That being the case......ummmmm, what's your point? That it matters where you hit a man with a slug or that it doesn't matter? I shall endeavor to discover the source of my growing confusion.
Who am I going to believe: Elvis, with 1 (one) post, who registered today, or George Hill, who has been on this list much longer than I have, and has over 7K posts?
Admitedly, longevity & volume doesn't guarantee accuracy, but Kodiak has a track record I can evaluate. For all I know, Elvis is really Hardin.
TB., NC
Admitedly, longevity & volume doesn't guarantee accuracy, but Kodiak has a track record I can evaluate. For all I know, Elvis is really Hardin.
TB., NC
hardin is a troll
hey gunkid, that you? or are ya JD? ahh, it don't matter....bullet placement is a good thing...357 has about 90% stopping power with a single 125gr 'slug'...and a 12ga slug will just about blow a hole clean through 'em, so i'm gonna go out on a limb, and say stopping power is pretty high on that too...so if you gonna paraphrase from a magazine, get a new subcription..
hey gunkid, that you? or are ya JD? ahh, it don't matter....bullet placement is a good thing...357 has about 90% stopping power with a single 125gr 'slug'...and a 12ga slug will just about blow a hole clean through 'em, so i'm gonna go out on a limb, and say stopping power is pretty high on that too...so if you gonna paraphrase from a magazine, get a new subcription..
Hardin, I can't figure out if you're a troll, or simply very bad at handgun tactics.
To help make the distinction, please point me to ANY top-flight self defense course that would advocate head shots over COM shots at any range, other than maybe contact distance when you and your assailant are rolling around on the ground. You are going for a lucky shot and hoping that you'll hit a very hard target under difficult conditions. Personally, I hope you never have to demonstrate your technique, because I doubt we'll be seeing posts from you after your encounter.
To help make the distinction, please point me to ANY top-flight self defense course that would advocate head shots over COM shots at any range, other than maybe contact distance when you and your assailant are rolling around on the ground. You are going for a lucky shot and hoping that you'll hit a very hard target under difficult conditions. Personally, I hope you never have to demonstrate your technique, because I doubt we'll be seeing posts from you after your encounter.
I will readily admit to not knowing everything there is to know about firearms; shot placement; stop zones; kill zones; ballistics; configuration of bullet, velocity and caliber; etc.
That being said, I do what happens when a human gets hit by "fire" from M16's; M14's; M60's; Navy Colts and Browning auto 12's, under a variety of lighting, weather and cover conditions. I also will note that I also know what the more "standard" civilian weapons such as 30-30's; 06's; 7mm's; various Mauser calibers and Marlin 44's will do to game, again under various conditions.
From the latter above, I have learned that animals don't always react with text book responses. I learned at a very early age to followup that "killing" shot with whatever it takes to be sure of my take.
More to the point, Humans rarely, if ever, react in the manner I was taught to expect (nor with what I had learned when tracking game). I quickly learned to put as many rounds into the enemy as it takes to put him down. Permanently. When I read someone's sig that said, more or less, "I don't shoot to kill, I shoot to survive," it was no mystery to me what was meant.
It took a long time for me to be able to pick up a weapon after my experience in Nam (YMMV). It has taken even longer to finally admit that even here in rual Idaho (where I moved to get away from the crap in So Cal 20 yrs ago), I might one day have to kill another man.
To that end, I bought a handgun and began practicing my skills again. When my wife and I go camping, I open carry wherever we are. I don't give a fig about what forest (state or national) I'm in, and surprisingly (or maybe not...this is Idaho after all), neither do the rangers/wardens.
I've followed this thread and several others that Mr. Hardin has started. Mr. Hardin, there is no magic bullet, nor is there any one method/means to follow when TSHTF. Each response is and will be unique. To that end, training and practice are the only sane answers. No one person can have enough training nor can any one person have enough practice.
We each carry what we are comfortable with, whether it is a .22 or a .454! It is and will be the individuals training and practice that will be the deciding factor, short of a complete ambush (meaning you are down and out before you feel the first impact).
From your opening post to your responses, Mr. Hardin, you have been and are thoroughly arguementative. Your responses indicate a complete lack of familiarity with what is commonly known as reality. On Usenet, this would get you labled a Troll.
Al.
That being said, I do what happens when a human gets hit by "fire" from M16's; M14's; M60's; Navy Colts and Browning auto 12's, under a variety of lighting, weather and cover conditions. I also will note that I also know what the more "standard" civilian weapons such as 30-30's; 06's; 7mm's; various Mauser calibers and Marlin 44's will do to game, again under various conditions.
From the latter above, I have learned that animals don't always react with text book responses. I learned at a very early age to followup that "killing" shot with whatever it takes to be sure of my take.
More to the point, Humans rarely, if ever, react in the manner I was taught to expect (nor with what I had learned when tracking game). I quickly learned to put as many rounds into the enemy as it takes to put him down. Permanently. When I read someone's sig that said, more or less, "I don't shoot to kill, I shoot to survive," it was no mystery to me what was meant.
It took a long time for me to be able to pick up a weapon after my experience in Nam (YMMV). It has taken even longer to finally admit that even here in rual Idaho (where I moved to get away from the crap in So Cal 20 yrs ago), I might one day have to kill another man.
To that end, I bought a handgun and began practicing my skills again. When my wife and I go camping, I open carry wherever we are. I don't give a fig about what forest (state or national) I'm in, and surprisingly (or maybe not...this is Idaho after all), neither do the rangers/wardens.
I've followed this thread and several others that Mr. Hardin has started. Mr. Hardin, there is no magic bullet, nor is there any one method/means to follow when TSHTF. Each response is and will be unique. To that end, training and practice are the only sane answers. No one person can have enough training nor can any one person have enough practice.
We each carry what we are comfortable with, whether it is a .22 or a .454! It is and will be the individuals training and practice that will be the deciding factor, short of a complete ambush (meaning you are down and out before you feel the first impact).
From your opening post to your responses, Mr. Hardin, you have been and are thoroughly arguementative. Your responses indicate a complete lack of familiarity with what is commonly known as reality. On Usenet, this would get you labled a Troll.
Al.