Simulating AK with M1A ?
- Thread starter Hammer1
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dakota.potts
New member
I'd think, because of the size of the platform, downloading it to AK recoil impulse would still leave you with more energy than a 7.62x39. Getting the round to cycle would be the interesting part.
What exactly is the goal of what you're asking?
What exactly is the goal of what you're asking?
When I shot the M1a in competition, bud's used to use 125 grain bullets standing and sitting RF. I shot 168's out to 300 yards, 168/175's at 600 yards. The lighter bullet will function the rifle with less recoil. I don't know any loads but will recommend for a powder either IMR 3031 or IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495.
Now, if you fill up the butt stock with lead shot, such as I did, the recoil is not so bad. I think my match rifle weighed around 12 pounds!
As for rounds, the 7.62 X 39 and the 7.62 X 51mm were built around two entirely different doctrines. The Russians decided 300 yards was good enough for combat, sure the round will go further, but the 7.62 X 39 is at its best up to 300 yards. I think a 30-30 Winchester is more powerful. The Soviets wanted the minimum power round they could issue. The American's wanted something that would blow through both sides of a helmet at 800 yards, and still be lethal at 1000 yards. What the US Army did was basically repackage the30-06 in a shorter case.
Now, if you fill up the butt stock with lead shot, such as I did, the recoil is not so bad. I think my match rifle weighed around 12 pounds!
As for rounds, the 7.62 X 39 and the 7.62 X 51mm were built around two entirely different doctrines. The Russians decided 300 yards was good enough for combat, sure the round will go further, but the 7.62 X 39 is at its best up to 300 yards. I think a 30-30 Winchester is more powerful. The Soviets wanted the minimum power round they could issue. The American's wanted something that would blow through both sides of a helmet at 800 yards, and still be lethal at 1000 yards. What the US Army did was basically repackage the30-06 in a shorter case.
dakota.potts
New member
What exactly are your goals? Just a soft-shooting .30 caliber round?
The Ruger Mini 30 may be what you are looking for.
http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html
http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html
Looking for an economical 30 caliber paper puncher accurate out to 300 or so yards which can be shot all day without wearing out the shooter...
Have a handful of M1A rifles and thought that with a little downloading they would still function and provide good use out to 300 or so yards.
Have a handful of M1A rifles and thought that with a little downloading they would still function and provide good use out to 300 or so yards.
dakota.potts
New member
What you're looking for sounds almost like the 7.62 CETME.
The way I see it, without heavily modifying a rifle, your choices are 7.62X39 or .300 Blackout. 7.62X39 will generally result in lower accuracy for a number of reasons, but is about the cheapest rifle round out there. .300 Blackout is more versatile but more expensive. Man sized steel targets should be fair game with either, but shooting for groups will probably discount the majority of 7.62x39 rifle/ammo combinations, especially the ones with the price advantages
The way I see it, without heavily modifying a rifle, your choices are 7.62X39 or .300 Blackout. 7.62X39 will generally result in lower accuracy for a number of reasons, but is about the cheapest rifle round out there. .300 Blackout is more versatile but more expensive. Man sized steel targets should be fair game with either, but shooting for groups will probably discount the majority of 7.62x39 rifle/ammo combinations, especially the ones with the price advantages
Is simulating the performance, reliability, and recoil of the AK actually a good thing?
Balllistically, it's a shorter range round with more drop than others. That makes it harder to shoot accurately at it's limit - shooters have to calculate the drop, which is measured not in inches, but yards. Ergonomically the controls are like a typewriter keyboard - laid out to slow down the operator, not make them faster.
Reliability is less than legendary. The magazines make or break it - bad mags and bad ammo are much more important as they cause the majority of malfunctions. And that reliability requires cleaning it, and it's more involved and takes longer to keep the piston clean.
Recoil is about the same as a lot of other intermediates - trying to duplicate that with a much larger rifle made for heavier recoiling cartridges is going to get the operating pressures out of it's dynamic performance envelope. You'd need to modify a M1A to keep it working.
The better choice in comparison to all that is a completely different rifle and action designed for flatter shooting, light recoiling, easy to maintain, and lighter rifle.
One with ergonomically laid out controls and a bolt hold open so that the shooter doesn't need to lose his sight picture or move his hand from the trigger.
One with cheap government sponsored surplus ammo and a track record of excellence when used in actual conflict against soldiers equipped with 7.62x39.
I suspect some might already know what I'm suggesting.
Balllistically, it's a shorter range round with more drop than others. That makes it harder to shoot accurately at it's limit - shooters have to calculate the drop, which is measured not in inches, but yards. Ergonomically the controls are like a typewriter keyboard - laid out to slow down the operator, not make them faster.
Reliability is less than legendary. The magazines make or break it - bad mags and bad ammo are much more important as they cause the majority of malfunctions. And that reliability requires cleaning it, and it's more involved and takes longer to keep the piston clean.
Recoil is about the same as a lot of other intermediates - trying to duplicate that with a much larger rifle made for heavier recoiling cartridges is going to get the operating pressures out of it's dynamic performance envelope. You'd need to modify a M1A to keep it working.
The better choice in comparison to all that is a completely different rifle and action designed for flatter shooting, light recoiling, easy to maintain, and lighter rifle.
One with ergonomically laid out controls and a bolt hold open so that the shooter doesn't need to lose his sight picture or move his hand from the trigger.
One with cheap government sponsored surplus ammo and a track record of excellence when used in actual conflict against soldiers equipped with 7.62x39.
I suspect some might already know what I'm suggesting.
I managed to load a .270 Win down to 30-30 level with an average velocity of 1931.8 fps with a 150 grain bullet. I used SR 4759 powder and ran it in a bolt action so I have no idea if it will cycle a semi-auto.
I don't know if SR 4759 will do the same thing in a .308 case but it might be a place to start.
I don't know if SR 4759 will do the same thing in a .308 case but it might be a place to start.
Data for intentional down loading of cartridges won't be found in the reloading manual, primarily because no one is interested in it.
Downloading can be done safely in many cases using many different powders, but some combinations of case and powder are definitely not suitable and can be very dangerous.
I can down load a .22 Hornet to be a .22LR or a .22 WMR if I want, and its very cool for certain things. I could download a .308 to be a .30-30 (or a 7.62x39), but I don't bother, its simpler to just use a .30-30 if that is the performance level I need, and for some reason can't use more. (no idea what situation that would be, other than someone who could not physically tolerate the difference in recoil)
In a single shot, or manual repeater, you can do anything you want. Semi autos are built to operate within a fairly narrow window of specs. Sometimes, you can expand that window by modifying the gun, sometimes, you can't.
If you are looking for data on a reduced load for the .308Win, I would suggest looking at cast bullet data for some starting points, and experiment carefully.
Medium or faster burn rate powders will be your best bets, avoid downloading with slow burning powders, bad things have been known to happen.
Good Luck.
Downloading can be done safely in many cases using many different powders, but some combinations of case and powder are definitely not suitable and can be very dangerous.
I can down load a .22 Hornet to be a .22LR or a .22 WMR if I want, and its very cool for certain things. I could download a .308 to be a .30-30 (or a 7.62x39), but I don't bother, its simpler to just use a .30-30 if that is the performance level I need, and for some reason can't use more. (no idea what situation that would be, other than someone who could not physically tolerate the difference in recoil)
In a single shot, or manual repeater, you can do anything you want. Semi autos are built to operate within a fairly narrow window of specs. Sometimes, you can expand that window by modifying the gun, sometimes, you can't.
If you are looking for data on a reduced load for the .308Win, I would suggest looking at cast bullet data for some starting points, and experiment carefully.
Medium or faster burn rate powders will be your best bets, avoid downloading with slow burning powders, bad things have been known to happen.
Good Luck.