Should states be allowed to divorce the union?

BerettaCougar

New member
If the majority of a states population wanted to divorce the union. Could it? Should your state (or another state) do so?

I forsee all the PRK and things like that, but lets try to keep this one positive.
 

SIGSHR

New member
I think this was tried in 1860-61, the answer then was no. Years ago I read the book, "The Confederate Nation", it had the text of the Confederate
Constitution which was a very close copy of the US Constitution. I was told
it gave the states the power to secede, but I could find no mention of it. The US Constitution does
forbid some things. Supposing the people of a state voted to create an Established Church? Or establish religious tests for public office?
 

RedneckFur

New member
If my understanding is correct, A state can susceed from the union, acording to the US constitution. I guess you could say the union's fight to "restore the US" was the first of many violations of the constuition.
 

Jets2007

New member
I don't see any states leaving the union any time soon. However, we have seen a trend recently in which quite a few states passed resolutions refusing to conform to the federal governments 'Real ID act'. I know Montana was one of the states. The entire list was posted on another thread.

I think we are seeing a backlash from a lot of states... people are sick of the federal government trying to run every aspect of their lives.

With the top candidates for this years election... I don't think much will change in DC anytime soon. Sadly, we will get more of the same.
 

Hugh Damright

New member
It's an interesting question ... I see the US Constitution as a contract between the States, and I think that contracts are binding and a party cannot just remove itself ... some say that since the US Constitution is not limited in duration, since it is not a 25 year compact or a 100 year compact but rather it is perpetual, that no State can secede while the compact is being respected. On the other hand, the US Constitution doesn't prohibit secession, and so that seems to leave it up to each State to secede. As long as the US Constitution is being honored, secession may or may not be a States' right.

But when the States make a compact and it is perverted into something other than what was consented to, then secession is an inalienable right. For the Southern States, that line was crossed generations ago. I don't know if yankeefornian States have a right to secede ... I don't see how the parties that pervert a contract can use that same perversion to withdraw themselves.

And then there's the Second Amendment ... if a State cannot secede, then how is it a free State? It seems to me that the ultimate exercise of the Second Amendment's principle would be secession.
 

The Tourist

Moderator
Secede, probably not again. But they could fire us. Now, hear me out.

At some point in your life you must have been a hell-raiser. You know, chased too many women, drank a tad too much beer, called in sick far too many times. Sooner or later, your boss called in and said something like, "We believe we're going in a different direction, and I have to let you go..."

So, what if we picked a really nice area. We all bought Harleys with no mufflers. The local government provided a stipend for beer, which would be tax free if delivered in metric tons. By law, all company managers would have to be lesbian drama majors from Vassar, but chocolate was ruled a "controlled substance." No cocoa products could be imported. Every reported infraction resulted in that the management staff had to go through six weeks of sensitivity training in a locked down Howard Johnson's, no fraternization--and of course, no chocolate..

Every company had to provide at least 280 days of vacation and/or sick leave, and you had to take them to get paid for them. If any one person on an assembly line called in sick, the entire line had to be shut down.

Okterberfest starts on May, 3rd of every year. All clocks show only the designated times from noon until 3:00 PM. All other times read as "beer-thirty."

Taxes can be paid in their weight of beer bottle caps or handwritten IOU's.

Now how does this help us? Well, I figure that by about mid April, when no tax revenue is delivered, a herd of really cranky girls from Vassar are all going to submit their resignations at the same time. Not one single government contract will be filled--except by beer besotted scrap, which cannot be used for anything. Of course, the government also owes 1.7 trillion in unpaid sick leave.

About this time, the red "Bat Phone" will ring out in my garage. I'll be polishing my completely street legal 122 CI blown Dyna, with State Patrol sanctioned straight pipes.

"Governor Tourist?" President Hillary will begin, "I'm afraid that I have some very bad news you..."

"Hey, babe," gesticulates Hizzoner, "don't stress, it causes laugh-lines. Do what I do. Have a beer, it's cheap and tax exempt..."

"Well, about that," The Prez rambles, "I've had several of my old sorority gals in here, and doggone it, things just don't seem to be working out."

"But, Hillary, we delivered over 27 tons on time and almost within budget. Yikes, we had a 'blue-flu' epidemic here that would have choked an intern. I stuggled day and night until about 3:00PM to get that delivered..."

Yes, yes, Tourist," she rebukes, "And we will struggle to find some use for it after it's done draining. But the scope of this call is a bit wider, I'm afraid."

"What's wrong, babe?"

(sigh)...well, it's just not working out as we had planned. I fear that my Presidency is just moving in another direction, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to let you go..."

"Just me?"

"Oh, no, merciful heavens," Hillary intones, "I mean the entire midwestern state of New Feudal Wisconsin, the oligarchy and all! And I mean north to every drunken yooper and as far south until cheese rots on the flatlands. All of it--you're fired--every square inch--out, out--begone with you!"

And that, my friends is how you properly secede. You make it look like their fault, and they're glad when the door kisses your keester. Had I been running the CSA, old Atlanta would still be standing, Clark Gable would only be known as the grade-B actor in "The Misfits," the Confederate dollar would rival the EU and they'd be trucking in foreign subsidies by the container.

I did tell you I was a credit manager and a biker, didn't I?
 

Hawg

New member
I haven't seen this but it looks interesting. Is it pro Lincoln or pro constitution?

I haven't seen it either but from what I've heard it's an anti South crock of S**T. Just the fact that Spike Lee did it ought to tell you something.
 

rrtex1

New member
Texas Can

My understanding is that Texas can. Because Texas was it's own republic and not a territory when it joined the union there are clauses that allow it to secede.
 

Redworm

Moderator
I haven't seen it either but from what I've heard it's an anti South crock of S**T. Just the fact that Spike Lee did it ought to tell you something.
If by anti-south you mean anti-slavery, then yes!


I believe that if a large enough chunk of contiguous states wanted to leave it could be possible. It may be violent but it could be possible. I highly doubt it would ever happen, though. No state - no, not even Texas - can survive on its own in this global economy. No state would have enough of its people so content to never leave that they'd gladly give up the opportunity to ever live in another part of the country.

Ain't gonna happen. Not in any of our lifetimes, not without some massive cataclysmic event.
 

Pat H

Moderator
There is no prohibition to secession in the US Constitution as originally ratified, in fact at least two states, New York and Virginia, put secession as a states power in their original ratification documents.

Further, the Tenth Amendment guarantees the right of secession in that it curbs federal power to do anything that isn't expressly authorized the federal government or to prevent anything the states do that isn't prohibited expressly in the Constitution.

The Fourteenth Amendment did not alter either of the above.

References:
1. Secession, State, and Liberty by Dr. David Gordon, editor.
2. When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession by Charles Adams.
3. A Constitutional History of Secession by John R. Graham.


As far as Spike Lee's new movie, CSA: The Confederate States of America is concerned, it appears to be a rather stilted anti-south movie that shows just how bad someone dislikes all things southern. Lee should lay off whatever recreational pharmaceuticals he's been using so he can make reality based judgements.
 
No state - no, not even Texas - can survive on its own in this global economy. No state would have enough of its people so content to never leave that they'd gladly give up the opportunity to ever live in another part of the country.

Alaska could.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
So can a city decide to leave a state? Does the state that wants to establish its own version of looney land have to pay to resettle the significant portion of the population that disagrees with the decision to leave the Union?

Do these citizens have the right to take up arms and slay the state government to return to the Union?
 

hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
I seen the CSA movie... Checked it out from the library... I thought it was going to be a documentary... That was very funny tongue in cheek movie as far as I am concerned! I couldn't believe anyone would make it and now I find out it was made by a black? TOO COOL! I made sure my family did not point out to the library staff the nature of this flick. I wanted as many southern folks in this town to get a peek before it was censored out! Now I am gonna call and complain about this racial bigoted piece of garbage by the black bigot!
And once again (likely not the last time either) THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION was well underway for a couple years before ANY mention of slavery! There were still states with slavery in the north during the initial conflicts. The south was aware that we were being treated differently as some rednecks, but stupid we were not. We said something along the lines of... "Treat us better and more equally on a political level or we will sell every boll of cotton to france."
Brent
 

rhgunguy

Moderator
Sure, go ahead. But you get to enjoy a tarrif placed on the products that your new state/country imports(yes, it would be importing) and everyone in America would have to pay a tarrif on the goods that your state/country exports.

Since that mean old Uncle Sam is not likely going to be happy about said succesion, the tarrif on goods from said state/country will likely make them prohibitively expensive for the rest of us in America, thus no one buys.

Here is another thought: have you ever actualy been starving? It is not fun from what I have heard. But, succede from the Union and I guarantee that Uncle Sam(still not happy) will see to it that an embargo on food products are placed on your state/country. Unless you are in the midwest, you are going to starve.

Let's look at how an entire region would fare, shall we? Say the South were to rise again. They would all starve before you can say "j'eat yet?" Due to the urban population concentrations and lack of any real farmland(an Iowa boy couldn't raise Cain in red clay).

Here is the real catch-22 of succesionism. To defeat the government troops you need a strong population base. To support a strong population base you need to have vast quantities of farmable land. To have vast quantities of etc.. you have to have low population density. Bottom line is that Illinois has the only chance of even trying, seeing as they have a good mix of both farmland and population. But I do not see the People's Republic of Illinois, lead by General Barrak Hussein Obama, succeding from the Union anytime soon.

Alaska could.

Ignorance. And what would they eat, the yellow snow?
 

hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
Some folks seem to think the south is at mercy of uncle sam...
Sorry to burst yer bubble but short of a few cities this region is LOADED with agriculture. P-nuts, soybean, cattle, sugar cane, sugar beets, beets, greens, corn, citrus, palm products (coconuts, dates, swamp cabbage). Not to mention some of the finest ports in the world.
As far as secession, The federal gubmint broke the contract many times over...
Brent
 

Pat H

Moderator
Not just Alaska, but most states could survive very well in a global economy.

One of the things you see mentioned is that if a state or group of states secedes from the Union of States, that would entail a walling off of sorts from the remaining states. That an economic boycott by the remaining Union of States against the seceded state or states would be a matter of course.

Using Canada, the largest trading partner with America, and Mexico, the second largest trading partner with America, as examples; I think it's obvious that business as usual would be the expected norm, rather than some kind of cessation of trading among the states.

What would occur, and what should occur, is increased freedom in both the remaining Union states and in the seceded states; freedom as each sees fit to pursue what its culture may indicate or where it may lead.

The New England culture has always been highly socialist, before that term even came into general use. It's been the most vocal in support of mercantilism, the partnership of the corporate world with government. They should be free to pursue that if that is their desire, without imposing it on other cultures and states, the way it is now.
 

apr1775

New member
First, read the tenth amendment to the US Constitution, and then explain to me how the several states don't reserve the right of secession. Yes, I'm well aware of what happened in the 1860's, but that was merely an act of brute tyrranny by the US government.

Does this mean your town can seceed? No. The Federal government was created by the States. Your local government derives its power from a state issued charter.

I didn't get this from attending government run schools, I had to go read the founding documents for myself.
 

stephpd

New member
divorce

I think the larger states could make it on their own. California and possibly Texas could survive as independent countries. I have no problem with either or both leaving the union. Alaska would have a hard time surviving on it's own. Little states like mine(Delaware) could not make it unless we had side deals with other nearby states.

As far as states needing agriculture and industry to survive, most if not all states have both.Well Alaska might not have agriculture but the lower 48 have plenty in all the states.Rural areas and farming is not far from every large city.
 
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