Should a pistol be aimed or pointed?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

People need to stop using the term "point shooting" vs "Aiming" when it comes to defensive handgun shooting.

1. Why?
2. You understood my point though? Visual focus on the sights gives important feedback to the shooter that can be used to self-diagnose problems. If you can’t or don’t look at the sights, you don’t get that feedback.

 

[WVsig]

Where did "slow" come from?

It comes from the bastardization of the concept of a surprised break which Cooper refers to as the "open end surprise break". Most people do not understand the concept of a "compressed break" Most people misunderstand the concept and when you add to it the fixation on the front sight causes them issues on target. You have seen it at the range. Someone with the gun extended squinting to see the front sight with their finger on the trigger. Most are slowly pressing the trigger to the rear while their gun wobbles and their sights move. They then jerk the trigger in a "now".

On the other end of the spectrum guys like Rob L and those who shoot at or close to his speed don't use their sight and they slap the trigger. The setup of their gun and the rest of their foundation is so solid they can get away with it and achieve the required accuracy.

How on earth can reading and watching videos effectively teach trigger control?

You can't which is why posting a old Cooper video explaining it doesn't do much for me. LOL Unfortunately this or their buddy is exactly how most people learn to shoot a pistol. I am referring to the reality of the situation not the ideal best of all possible worlds scenario.

Whatever that was intended to mean has been lost in the diatribe.

My point is that if we keep approaching the issue of aiming and trigger control the same way with the same verbiage we will see most people at the range shooting crappy targets with huge spreads and not tight groups. I don't know where you shoot but I at the ranges where I have shot over the last decade 8 out of 10 targets look horrible. They are all over the place.

If you go up to the shooter that is all over the place and ask them to tell you about their shooting process if they can articulate it at all they will tell you. I am lining up or aiming my sights on the target and then I am squeezing the trigger. In reality they are not doing any of that but they think they are. That was the point I was trying to make.

Anyway back to the OPs question. Italics were inserted by me for emphasis.

Should a pistol be aimed or pointed?
A rifle is definitely aimed. I think that is generally agreed upon. A shotgun, by contrast, is pointed, not aimed. I think that too is generally agreed upon.

So where does a pistol fit in that spectrum?

Personally, I've had the idea that a pistol should be aimed, but recently I've tended to think otherwise. An article I read suggested that, when in a defensive encounter, one will naturally focus on the target, not the front sight of the weapon. I've never been in such an encounter and I hope I never will, but the argument seems to make sense.

What do you think?

The OP is not asking about slow fire target shooting. He/She is not asking about the type of shooting you are doing in a NRA First Step Pistol shooting class. He/She is not even talking about USPSA or IDPA gun games. They are asking about shooting in defensive encounter. That is what I was speaking to.

Those statically happen under the following conditions.

-Within 10 yards or less
-In a low light situation
-Number of attackers is 1-3
-In a shooting where only one gun is present and fired 1-3 shots are fired
-In a gunfight where more than one gun is present the number of shot fired are whatever is in the gun.
-A high % of the time shooter is using strong hand only.

In a defensive shooting incident you are pointing the gun and with proper grip, extension and trigger control you are shooting that gun to a natural point of aim with or without your sights. A good defensive shooter should be able to do both but even if you are using your front sight you are not really aiming as much as checking alignment to the target which is why so many people are moving away from 3 dot setups for defensive guns. Dot over dot or U shaped black rears with tritium fronts are a more intuitive platform. IMHO

 

[Ricklin]

I did not say that

Frank,
Regret you took my comment as you did. I did not say you do not know how to shoot a shotgun.
I said if you are looking at the bead, you miss. Perhaps you are different than I and everyone else I have shot trap with.
Again, regrets you took it that way, not intended.

 

[WVsig]

1. Why?
2. You understood my point though? Visual focus on the sights gives important feedback to the shooter that can be used to self-diagnose problems. If you can’t or don’t look at the sights, you don’t get that feedback.

The OPs question was about defensive pistol shooting. On a square range yes the sights are useful for aimining and alignment to the target and shooting tiny groups at 25 yards but in a defensive situation you are not really using them.

Try this drill next time you are at the range. Set a target up at 5-7 yards. Take some black electrical tape and tape off your sights. Obscure the rear and the front sight post. Draw the gun and fire. I am willing to bet that your group will not be much different then if you were looking at that front post.

I have done a similar drill at night with a gun without night sights without a light. I got similar results. night sights made alignment to the target easier but it really did not change my groups outside of the A zone.

Another version of this drill is to bring the gun out to proper extension and close your eyes and fire a round or 2.

Now I am assuming you are a decent shot. That you have good stance, grip, extension and trigger control. Now if you can shoot almost the same group without your sights at a self defensive pistol range or 5-7 yards I would argue that you do not aim a pistol in that usage.

As to the point-shooting verbiage I had it because it has so many negative connotations because people misrepresent it too often.

 

[WVsig]

And those statements are not categorically true.

First, you assume that the way I describe trigger control isn't understood. I know that's not true because I, and others, have been effectively teaching trigger control that way for some time, to many students.

For about the last nine years I've been with a group of instructors putting on a monthly Basic Handgun class (originally it was an NRA Basic Handgun class -- our class hasn't changed but the NRA class has). We're older guys, most of us retired or close to it. We've all done a fair bit of shooting and training -- multiple classes at Gunsite, classes with a number of instructors like Massad Ayoob or Louis Awerbuck, USPSA or IDPA competition, NRA instructor certifications, and three are POST certified. Our training group is organized as a 501(c)(3) corporation. We're all volunteers, and none of use receive any compensation (except the company buys us dinner after the class where we do a debriefing).

Probably 80% to 90% of our students had never touched a real gun before. Our class enrollment runs roughly 30% female. We have students of all ages from early 20s to us more seasoned types. We've had entire families attend together.

Most of our student show varying levels of anxiety at handling real guns. We try to address this by bringing them through the course material in a step-by-step, measured and supportive way. We limit class size to 10 students, and will have at least five or six instructors at each class. The class runs about ten hours, but we try to provide adequate breaks. Periodically we discuss breaking the class up into two days; but since we often have students travel from some distance doing so might be a greater hardship.

In preparation for live fire we put on a lecture and demonstration about how to actually shoot (grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger press, surprise break, focus on the front sight, and eye dominance). I usually do this one, and I like to use an airsoft gun fitted with a Crimson Trace laser grip to illustrate a controlled trigger press compared with jerking the trigger. We then work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns.

Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom so they can get a feel for sight alignment and trigger control (and reset) without the noise and intimidation factor (for beginners) of firing real ammunition.

After the students fire their 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor), we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to.

During the live fire exercises it's not uncommon for a student to shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at seven yards with even the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards.

Of course we're not teaching a defensive handgun class. We're giving complete beginners a decent foundation upon which to build further skills.

Maybe this is why we are not speaking the same language. You are talking about taking people completely new to handguns and teaching them how to get onto paper. I commend you and your training group for your efforts.

But I will say it again the OP asked about defensive pistol shooting.

Originally Posted by Pep in CA
Should a pistol be aimed or pointed?
A rifle is definitely aimed. I think that is generally agreed upon. A shotgun, by contrast, is pointed, not aimed. I think that too is generally agreed upon.

So where does a pistol fit in that spectrum?

Personally, I've had the idea that a pistol should be aimed, but recently I've tended to think otherwise. An article I read suggested that, when in a defensive encounter, one will naturally focus on the target, not the front sight of the weapon. I've never been in such an encounter and I hope I never will, but the argument seems to make sense.

What do you think?

So my answer was not how do we teach a person who has never shot a gun before how to get on paper consistently. My answer was in a defensive situation do you aim a pistol. My response is no and I think I have made a good case for my opinion.

I fully understand and agree with you on how to build up to that skill. You have to start somewhere. I however believe at some point the mindset and the skillset development changes. A person who is trying to learn how to defend themselves with a handgun is going to alter the verbiage and the approach to solve the problem they are most likely to be confronted with.

Just like a gun gamer is going to tweak the mindset and the skill set to game the game. The timer becomes everything. Properly staging a match is often the difference between winning and losing. The tweaks to the skill set necessary to be a good gamer do not necessarily translate to defending oneself in a defensive situation. IMHO

As to training in general I think people do not do enough training. I tell everyone who will listen if I could go back and start over I would have bought a lot fewer guns early on and bought lot more training. Good basic training like you offer should be everyones starting point. From there people should be looking to take a few days of training every year. They don't have to be from Gunsite or Vickers, because lets face it most people don't have the time or the resources to take 5 days to train. There are lots of good training groups all over the country. It is sad to see how few people take advantage of it. So on that point we are in 100% agreement.

I wonder how many people on this enthusiast gun board have actually paid for training or gotten formal training outside a basic NRA, CCW course, military or LEO training. I wonder what the % would be. I wonder what the % would be who do it on an annual or bi-annual basis.

I apologize if some of my verbiage was too strong and came across as hot headed. I just think that some of the foundational stuff has been distorted and lost in translation because people don't actually understand it or ever trained it in real life.

 

[OldMarksman]

Rob Leatham says this:

Jerking your trigger finger back quickly while in the learning phases destroys your accuracy.

Only the most advanced and skilled shooters are able to do this and maintain an even unmoving grip on the gun. Save that for later as you progress.

Pull the trigger evenly so that you do not interrupt sight alignment. Think smooth and steady.

Massad Ayoob says this:

History shows that the person who starts with accuracy and then accelerates the pace will reach the grail of fast accuracy the soonest. Accuracy is the foundation, and speed is easier to build on top of accuracy. Once the fundamentals necessary for accuracy are established, all that remains is to gradually accelerate until those accurate hits are coming sooner and, consecutively, faster.

To suggest that anyone who has not advanced into the advanced skill category try a "controlled slap" is not helpful.

To suggest that any significant number of persons who carry firearms for self defense have attained status of a campion such as Rob Latham, or likely ever will, is just not realistic.

Now, all of that pertains to trigger control and, of course, to the very important subjects of grip and stance.

What the OP asked about was whether a handgun should be "aimed" or "pointed".

That would seem to have more to do with using the sights. Your suggestions regarding that are right on point. In one of Jim Cirillo's books, there are good illustrations of the concept.

 

[HiBC]

Why look at them(pointing and aiming) as mutually exclusive?
I'm thinking I acquire the sights by pointing my pistol at the target.
That starts with my grip at the draw.
If I point and I don't see the sights,they are probably misaligned .(That means I miss)
It may happen that that the trigger really needs to be pulled sooner,like immediately after clearing the holster.
If you grip the gun and draw the same, consistent way you have thousands of times,odds are good,most of the time,that your hand has the sights reasonably well aligned before you bring the gun up to your eyes.
And if you can press the trigger without pushing the gun in some other direction,you just might hit something the size of a watermelon at 5 feet.

 

[Pep in CA]

The OP chiming in again. Thanks for the replies so far, although a lot of them seem to, well, miss the mark. I tend to agree with WVsig. My question wasn't about marksmanship training. It was about tactical defensive handgun training.

I've been practicing for 2 years after taking basic, intermediate, and advanced handgun classes. My focus has been on mechanincs and marksmanship, which are important but not the reason I puchased a pistol. I purchased a pistol to stop threats.

In post #45, WVsig hits the mark, IMO, when he said "at some point the mindset and the skillset development changes." That is the point where I'm at now and the reason I asked the original question.

At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.

Again, thanks for the replies.

 

[Lohman446]

bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target

You are aiming. Its a scale. It is not dichotomous. You may be on the low end of the scale but the fact of the matter is you are bringing the gun up, presumably into your vision, for a reason.

 

[WVsig]

Rob Leatham says this:

​

Massad Ayoob says this:

​

To suggest that anyone who has not advanced into the advanced skill category try a "controlled slap" is not helpful.

To suggest that any significant number of persons who carry firearms for self defense have attained status of a campion such as Rob Latham, or likely ever will, is just not realistic.

Now, all of that pertains to trigger control and, of course, to the very important subjects of grip and stance.

What the OP asked about was whether a handgun should be "aimed" or "pointed".

That would seem to have more to do with using the sights. Your suggestions regarding that are right on point. In one of Jim Cirillo's books, there are good illustrations of the concept.

Accuracy is of course the foundation of shooting at any speed. No one is disputing that. Trigger manipulation is primary. Aiming is only comes into place after you have mastered trigger manipulation. Rob L puts 70% on trigger manipulation and 30% on visual. As I stated earlier at self defense shooting distances, 10 yards and, if you have good trigger manipulation the 30% visual is not going to turn a good shot into a bad one. IMHO

Watch this video from Rob L. It explains it perfectly.

Rob L states in the video there are only 3 things you have to do to shoot a pistol well.

1. Hold the gun really tight.
2. Point the gun at the target where you want to hit it.
3.Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

I agree that the concept of a controlled slap is something that should be introduced later in the learning cycle but you do not have to be Rob L or of his level to be able to slap a trigger and not have it change your grip or alignment. I think you are creating a false comparison in an attempt to prove your point. I bet when you shoot fast you slap the trigger in a controlled manner.

 

[Pep in CA]

I don't want to get into a long semantical debate about what is pointing and what is aiming. I will just say, to me, if I'm focusing on the front sight, I'm aiming. If I'm focusing on the target, I'm pointing. Good enough for me.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The OPs question was about defensive pistol shooting. On a square range yes the sights are useful for aimining and alignment to the target and shooting tiny groups at 25 yards but in a defensive situation you are not really using them.

Well, I can’t speak for everyone; but I do use them in force on force. As you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t take any great skill to hit a 20”x40” target at 3-5 yards. You can index the pistol very coarsely and you’ll make hits if you don’t gank the trigger. That means that if I at 3-5yds, I had better make a good hit on the upper central neevous system or I am likely to get shot. Making a fast hit somewhere just means we’ll both get shot.

Try this drill next time you are at the range. Set a target up at 5-7 yards. Take some black electrical tape and tape off your sights. Obscure the rear and the front sight post. Draw the gun and fire. I am willing to bet that your group will not be much different then if you were looking at that front post.

Yes, we can both do this. I imagine we both have tens of thousands of good repetitions such that our muscle memory is very good at indexing for close range targets even when we can’t see the sights. The OP is wanting to transition from 25yd slow fire to practical shooting. His stated next step is going to be double-taps from low ready. My guess is he still has some time to put in on developing the muscle memory to index a pistol without looking at the sights.

Being able to confirm his index prior to pulling the trigger is going to make the process of getting good repetitions in faster and with less frustration. It will also let him know if he has grip or trigger control issues.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.

Instead of bringing up the gun to look at the target, push the gun out away from you in the high chest. As you are doing this, look at the sight alignment and confirm it. Switch to a focus on the target and focus on the smallest detail you can ID (like a 1” orange dot in the middle of the 6” area you want to hit) and break the trigger as the gun is fully extended.

Try it slow first, with an eye towards accuracy. When you have accuracy where you want it, start doing it faster until accuracy begins to fall apart.

I think you have the right idea though as far as working on practical skills given your range constrictions. And do the laser range! Great training tool!

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun.
...

And IME that's what folks have a tough time doing -- pulling the trigger to make the gun fire without moving the gun. Whether one aims or points, if the index of the gun on target is disturbed by the act of making the gun fire, the bullet will not go where you want it to go. The bullet will go to wherever the front sight is (wherever the gun is pointing) when the bullet leaves the barrel.

So when you write:

....everytime I go to the range and see the pistols targets that looks like they were shot by a blind man with a shotgun I will think of you anf assume 99% of them were using their sights in perfect alignment, aiming and jerking the hell out of that trigger....

you're exactly right. Those folks haven't learned how to make the gun go "bang" without moving it. They are jerking or mashing the trigger in some way.

Part of the challenge of teaching is finding ways to explain to someone how to do that -- make the gun fire without disturbing its index on target -- in ways that the student can translate into action. Many of us have found that talking about and demonstrating the surprise break and the compressed surprise break generally does that.

Even as Rob shows (at 2:18) in the video you linked to, trying to fire the gun "right now" jerks the gun off target. As he describes it, that happens because the student is aiming and then tries to make the gun fire at exactly that instant when everything is lined up.

But that doesn't necessarily explain to the student how to go about pulling the trigger without moving the gun.

 

[OldMarksman]

The OP chiming in again. .. My question wasn't about marksmanship training. It was about tactical defensive handgun training.

That's how I took the question.

At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.

While many people do practice at seven yard targets and have for years, and while that distance is coincidentally the distance that an average attacker can cover during a nominal one-and-one-half second draw time, I do not think that practicing at seven yards is necessarily a good idea.

Nor do I think that working to hit six inch targets "defensively" is a good general goal.

What we need to strive for is a balance of speed and precision that will enable us to consistently shoot as rapidly as possible with combat accuracy at plausible distances, in time to stop the threat.

Most of the time, that means putting multiple shots quickly into an area about the size of the upper chest.

While one should be able to handle a target at seven yards, that's on the long end of the likely range--think in terms of 10 or 12 feet. We can go into that in more depth if you like.

I happened to have the opportunity to attend a two day I.C.E. PDN course in Combat Focus Shooting within driving distance a few years ago. The instructor was Rob Pincus.

I had been shooting handguns for quite a number of decades, but that was a real eye-opener. We did not shoot at a target in front of us at which we had planned to shoot. We did not shoot at a target upon a signal--rather, we looked for, identified, and turned to immediately address a target somewhere within the multi-sided berm, immediately after it was described to us. We did not "practice" at different distances--rather, we fired at whatever distance was required for whatever target was specified. Those distinctions are important.

We moved off-line while drawing. We were to "use" the sights only when needed for longer distances.

Basic grip and trigger control was taught for those who needed it.

As I said, a real eye-opener, and an excellent investment.

Most ranges do not allow that kind of thing, of course.

If you can possibly avail yourself of that training, by all means do so. If not, contact I.C.E. PDN about some of their home training course materials.

You can do your drawing from concealment while moving at home with an empty gun. A good Airsoft gun may prove useful for some of the other exercises.

Did that make me a defensive shooting expert? No, though it certainly did help. What it did not do is address shooting at multiple moving targets, and provide for shoot/no-shoot scenarios with innocents on scene. For that, one meeds FoF training with Simunitions, and that is not available until people have been through quite a bit of training. I am no longer physically able to aspire to that.

One other thing--there are some high-tech interactive laser simulation facilities in some places that can be set up for realistic scenarios, including shoot/no-shoot, that will tell you whether you fired and hit timely.

Some time back there was a video in which Rob Pincus demonstrated one, and he said it was so realistic that it got his adrenaline flowing.

Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively....

First, going back and forth is a good idea. One way to increase speed while preserving accuracy is to push yourself to the point when accuracy begins to deteriorate, then back off a bit, and then push yourself again.

As to what is acceptable "defensive" accuracy, remember that in a real violent encounter, under great stress your performance will suffer. Louis Awerbuck always pushed his students to be accurate and looked for 4 inch groups at fighting speeds.

 

[WVsig]

I happened to have the opportunity to attend a two day I.C.E. PDN course in Combat Focus Shooting within driving distance a few years ago. The instructor was Rob Pincus.

His course is on my list. He seems to do a lot more of the 1 day courses these days than the 2 day. I would prefer the 2 day.

 

[WVsig]

Well, I can’t speak for everyone; but I do use them in force on force. As you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t take any great skill to hit a 20”x40” target at 3-5 yards. You can index the pistol very coarsely and you’ll make hits if you don’t gank the trigger. That means that if I at 3-5yds, I had better make a good hit on the upper central neevous system or I am likely to get shot. Making a fast hit somewhere just means we’ll both get shot.

I am not talking about just hitting a 20" x 40" target I am talking about A zone hits. I am not talking single hole groups like one can shoot slow firing but all in the area the size of a grapefruit. I imagine you knew that and I imagine you can do it.

 

[WVsig]

The OP chiming in again. Thanks for the replies so far, although a lot of them seem to, well, miss the mark. I tend to agree with WVsig. My question wasn't about marksmanship training. It was about tactical defensive handgun training.

I've been practicing for 2 years after taking basic, intermediate, and advanced handgun classes. My focus has been on mechanincs and marksmanship, which are important but not the reason I puchased a pistol. I purchased a pistol to stop threats.

In post #45, WVsig hits the mark, IMO, when he said "at some point the mindset and the skillset development changes." That is the point where I'm at now and the reason I asked the original question.

At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.

Again, thanks for the replies.

You say that your range does not allow for "rapid fire". What do they consider rapid fire? Would 10 rounds in ten seconds be considered rapid fire?

If they would allow it if I were you I would shoot "The Test" which is a drill developed by Larry Vickers. 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards all in the black of a B8 25 yard bulleye center. The nice thing about this drill is that you do not need to do it from the draw. You shoot it from the low or high ready.

There are 2 ways to score it. Ken Hackathorn scores it by points. All in the black is 100. For every shot outside the X & 10 ring you deduct points. Shot in the 9 put you down 1, 8 down 2 and so on. IF you are off the paper you fail. You need a score of 90 to pass and be under the 10 second limit.

Larry Vickers requires everything to be in the black to pass and be under 10 seconds. Anything outside the black and you fail.

You can also do the half test which is the same format but with 5 rounds in 5 seconds. KH says it in the video but I will repeat it for those who don't bother to watch it. If he could recommend shooting one and only one drill to improve your self defense shooting "The Test" would be that drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIl912RdZC8&feature=youtu.be&t=168

 

[Frank Ettin]

....If they would allow it if I were you I would shoot "The Test" which is a drill developed by Larry Vickers. 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards all in the black of a B8 25 yard bulleye center. The nice thing about this drill is that you do not need to do it from the draw. You shoot it from the low or high ready.....

That's a new one for me, and it sounds like an excellent test of a balance of practical speed and accuracy.

My instructor group has exclusive use of a range once a month. So we use it as an opportunity to maintain our skills. We'll give it a try next month.

Thanks for the tip.