Shot Placement of Heavy for Caliber Bullets to the Vitals

30-30remchester

New member
I have a still living friend that detests the 45 ACP as a stopping round. He knows litte about guns so I always let the remark hang without a response. Finally after years of hearing this nonsence I finally replied he didnt know prunes about the great 45 ACP. His face turned red, he jumped up an the cafe table, ripped his shirt open to expose a scar that went from bellybutton to armpit. Seems he was an island called Saipan when a Jap charged him with a fixed bayonet. After 2 hits with a 45 ACP the Jap took him with the bayonet. Thankfully another GI helped stop the attack. I doubt that that "pinky hit" would have stopped the Jap either. I had to apologise to a man that had REAL WORLD experence. I also have a cop friend that shot himself in the kneecap with a Glock 45, while doing night training. When his fellow officers asked why he was leaving the firing line he told them he thought he had shot himself. After walking back to his car he had indeed shot himself. I saw him the next day walking around with a cane.
 

Jim March

New member
There's a whole lotta difference between the modern hollowpoints we have access to and the military hardball of eother 45 or 9mm/38 sizes.

I'd rather have a 38+P with quality hollowpoints over a full-house 357 shooting hardball roundnose. Any. Day. Of. The. Week.
 

Sarge

New member
Heck Jim if the see that Buck Rogers Vaquero of yours they'll die of fright pert near immediately ;)
 

Eagle0711

New member
A few experiences don't tell the whole story. The 45 ACP has a 100 year history of stopping BGs. All handgun rounds have failed on occasion, and many have worked as they were intended.

I have a lot of confidence in the old girl. Most of the time it will not fail you.


" You can't be a gun writer, your'e hitting what you are shooting at". - Wiley Clapp
 

Webleymkv

New member
A few points,

While heavier bullets do indeed penetrate somewhat deeper, even lighter bullets in most of the common service calibers (.38 Special, 9x19, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) still manage to achieve 12"+ penetration with the exception of extremely light-for-caliber loadings such as 90grn 9mm and 165grn .45 ACP. What must be remembered about the FBI standards is that they're intentionally over-penetrative in certain circumstances. For example, even though I'm a fairly large individual, my torso straight on in the "thoracic triangle" is roughly 10" from the anterior surface of my sternum to the posterior surface of my spine. Given a straight-on shot, even a "shallow" penetrating bullet that "only" goes 8" would be enough to easily reach vital organs.

However, because a straight on shot cannot be guaranteed, the FBI intentionally made their penetration criteria a bit on the deep side to compensate for oblique-angle or through-extremity shots. Therefore, even though a heavier bullet may penetrate a few inches more, so long as the lighter on still achieves the FBI's standard it will still have sufficient penetration.

Of course, there are certain circumstances in which deeper than normal penetration might be required such as an extremely large individual (and I do mean extremely large). In these cases, however, there really isn't enough difference in the penetration of the common service calibers between light-to-medium weight bullets and heavy bullets to convince me that it would make a significant difference. If you think you may be likely to be confronted with a situation in which very deep penetration may be required, I think you'd be better-served by considering either FMJ ammunition or, more preferably, a more powerful cartridge such as .357 Magnum (158grn or heavier), 10mm Auto (180grn or heavier), .41 Magnum, or .44 Magnum as these can offer both satisfactory expansion and significantly deeper penetration than most of the standard service calibers.

Another point is that of kinetic energy and temporary cavitation, possibly the two most misunderstood topics when it comes to terminal ballistics. There seems to be two opposing camps on the subject: the Marshall/Sanow "high energy/big temporary cavity" camp and the Fackler/FBI "deep penetration/permanent cavity" camp. Both offer both good and poor insights and the truth of the matter, I think, lies somewhere in between. I agree with the Fackler/FBI camp insofar as I think penetration is more important than energy or temporary cavitation. Where I disagree with them is the point at which they discount energy and temporary cavity altogether.

As even Dr. Fackler conceded, the temporary cavity generated by handguns can permanently damage certain tissues, but the bolded words in the preceding statement must be noted. Fackler and the FBI prefer to simply assume that the bullet will strike one of the more elastic anatomical structures and, therefore, temporary cavity will have little or no effect. This was, in the late 80's and early to mid-90's the safer assumption as the bullet designs of the time offered either deep penetration or high energy and vigorous expansion, but not both in the common service calibers. Today's premium bullets, on the other hand, are much better than those of 15-20 years ago and today's premium loadings allow you to have both energy/expansion and adequate penetration.

Where the Marshall/Sanow crowd gets it right is that temporary cavitation (which is directly proportional to kinetic energy transfer) can have profound effects if (and that is the key word in the statement) it occurs in the right tissue. The problem with ballistic gelatin testing is that the human body is not homogenous and therefore different organs and tissues will react to a bullet in different ways. Elastic or air-filled organs and tissues such as muscle, lungs, or most of the GI tract will not suffer significant damage from temporary cavitation. However, inelastic or fluid-filled organs and tissues such as liver, spleen, and the heart can indeed suffer profound damage from temporary cavity. Also the effects of temporary cavitation are fairly localized: temporary cavity can't do any harm if it doesn't reach anything vital.

The heart in particular has the potential to suffer damage which would cause very rapid incapacitation. If the bullet were to pass though a chamber (particularly a ventricle) that was full of blood, the temporary cavitation would displace the blood. If the fluid was sufficiently displaced, it would be so beyond its ability to compress (remember fluid is much less compressable than air). At this point, the fluid would seek the path of least resistance which, in the case of a ventricle, would be the atrioventricular valves and chordae tendineae since they are much less elastic and much more delicate than the myocardium. With, in effect, "blown out" AV valves, the heart's stroke volume will be severely decreased and thus blood pressure will be severely reduced most likely to the point of loss of consciousness.

So, what does it all mean? It means that so long as proper shot placement and adequate penetration are not sacrificed in order to achieve it, the loading which delivers the largest amount of kinetic energy, and therefore creates the largest temporary cavity, is IMHO the best. Again, the bolded part of the previous statement is very important. A 70grn 9mm bullet at 1600fps would have plenty of kinetic energy and, with a JHP, would likely expand and transfer that energy very aggressively. Unfortunately, such a bullet would likely overexpand and/or fragment and therefore penetrate rather shallowly. The end result would likely be a very gruesome-looking but relatively superficial wound.

Where things get tricky is that cartridges with lots of energy typically have lots of recoil, and recoil is not conducive to fast and accurate shooting. A .500 S&W certainly has a great deal of energy, but most people cannot shoot one nearly as quickly and accurately as they can a smaller caliber like a 9mm. However, going too small is also problematic. A .38 S&W is quite easy for most people to shoot quickly and accurately because of its very modest recoil, but it has very little energy and most people could shoot a .38 Special, which is usually considered to be a much more effective cartridge, almost as quickly and accurately from a similar gun. What it boils down to is a personal assessment of what is the most powerful cartridge that an individual can shoot with adequate speed and accuracy. My personal upper limit is a .44 Magnum in a 40oz+ revolver so that is what I carry whenever it is practical to carry a gun of that type, YMMV.
 

Archie

New member
A couple of thoughts, as usual...

1. The "thorasic triangle" concept is sound. However (there's always a 'however', isn't there?) not all shots are delivered straight on. One must think of the three-dimensional center of the thorasic triangle.

At least one (unverified) report has a police officer having to shoot a suspect during a traffic stop. The officer reported fired six rounds directly at the center of the suspect's chest. However, since the officer was standing at nearly a ninety degree angle to the suspect (outside the driver's door) all that happened was the six rounds tore heck out of the suspect's shirt and chest skin. I don't know if that really happened, but I'm sure it would not immediately stop a lethal attack.

To get a round into the serious internal organs of the thorasic triangle, one must address the area as three dimensional and possibly shoot through the shoulders or arms.

2. 30-30's account of the attacking Japanese soldier and the lack of faith in .45 ACP. Did we ever find where the Japanese soldier was hit? Or if he were hit at all? Even the august .45 ACP round doesn't work miracles.

There is a verified account of a suspect taking a full charge of 00 buckshot in the chest and outrunning the cop who shot him. (He was found dead from exsanguination a block from the original location.) Ain't no guarantees in life.

Aside from that, all of life is a gamble and subject to chance. The odds are I will never be hit by lightning, but it happens and I see no reason to wave golf clubs in the air during a lightning storm.

Just for the tally book, I'm glad 30-30's friend survived. I'm also glad he did the dirty work on Saipan. God bless him for his service.
 

Webleymkv

New member
1. The "thorasic triangle" concept is sound. However (there's always a 'however', isn't there?) not all shots are delivered straight on. One must think of the three-dimensional center of the thorasic triangle.

At least one (unverified) report has a police officer having to shoot a suspect during a traffic stop. The officer reported fired six rounds directly at the center of the suspect's chest. However, since the officer was standing at nearly a ninety degree angle to the suspect (outside the driver's door) all that happened was the six rounds tore heck out of the suspect's shirt and chest skin. I don't know if that really happened, but I'm sure it would not immediately stop a lethal attack.

That's a valid point and one that highlights the importance of a failure-to-stop drill. A typical failure to stop drill includes adjusting your aim to a different part of your attacker's anatomy, usually either the head or pelvic girdle. Both aiming points have advantages and disadvantages.

A shot to the brain or upper spine would probably be the most effective and cause the most rapid incapacitation. However, these organs offer a relatively small and difficult to hit target. Also, the skull is one of the most difficult structures in the body to penetrate due to both the thickness of the bone and its convex geometry.

While the pelvis does not offer as many vital structures as the head or upper chest, it is a larger and easier target to hit and penetrate than the head. Also, there are some vital structures in the pelvis, namely the lower spine, lower aorta, and upper femoral arteries. While breaking the pelvis or upper portion of the femur may not be immediately incapacitating, it may cripple or slow your attacker enough to allow you to either escape or take a more precise shot.
 

147 Grain

New member
Haven't seen any 158-gr. in 9mm, but it's an excellent bullet in 38 Special (same .355 caliber as 9mm) formerly labeled as the "FBI" or "Chicago" load.
 

LanceOregon

Moderator
This data regarding officer shootings is all totally irrelevant to civilians, however. As I keep pointing out to folks, civilians are NOT peace officers. We cannot shoot under the same circumstances that they can. We don't have the same needs in bullet performance that they do.

This recommendation really belongs in a law enforcement forum.


Heavy for caliber bullets like the 9mm 147-gr., 40 S&W 180-gr., and 45 ACP 230-gr. provide the extra penetration needed to get through extremities or bones before reaching the vitals. Almost all controlled and informal testing through various media shows a pattern of heavier bullets outperforming their lightweight counterparts across all caliber lines. (While middleweight bonded bullets are coming around nicely, heavyweight bonded projectiles still [usually] outperform them.)

The FBI uses common sense when it says that 62% of the time in OIC's, a bullet must pass through an arm / leg, or penetrate odd angles before reaching the vitals. This is why their minimum penetration standard of 12" - 16" is in effect. They also teach to aim a little higher than many PD's (used to) do because there are more significant vital areas between the armpits and above than below that area. It's no secret when PD's state that more than 1/2 of OIC's are at "odd angles" where the bullet travels a longer distance than most civilians imagine.

When someone's life is on the line, immediately stopping the threat is paramount! BG's usually expire more quickly with higher center-mass hits than the older thinking of around the bottom of the ribs / sternum (like the old-style targets encouraged you to aim for). Notice that in the past decade, range targets have raised their center ring about 3" higher than it used to be.

A couple of well-placed bullets dead-center (or a tad to the right) between the armpits can be your best friend when your life is on the line. Self defense priorities should include:

1. Shot Placement: Center Mass Between the Armpits
2. Bullet Construction / Heavy for Caliber Weight
3. Choice of Caliber
 
When your life is on the line, a bullet can expand to eternity, but if it doesn't penetrate thoroughly through the vitals, you are likely dead!

Actually, no you aren't. Most bad guys take flight when met with known threat of lethal force resistence. In other words, simply drawing the gun and pointing it at the bad guy stops most bad guys despite zero bullet expansion and zero vitals damage.

Of those that don't fllee, many will flee as a result of a warning shot or shot that misses them.

Then there are those who will flee after suffering a minor wound, then those suffering a major wound, but not hitting the vitals.

So if you shoot a bad guy and your bullet doesn't hit his vitals, you are not likely dead. In fact, it isn't even likely that the bad guy will be pressing the attack at that point. You could end up dead, but there are no statistics that support your notion that if you miss the vitals that you are likely dead.

However, if you have data to show that shot bad guys, but not shot in the vitals will usually kill their shooters, that would be very interesting data. If anything, it would seem to be more of the exception rather than the rule.

With that said, if you do miss the vitals, you can't expect the bad guy to be stopped. Even if you hit the vitals with a handgun, the bad guy may not be stopped, but he is more likely to be stopped physiologically if vitals are hit, but physiological incapacitation with handgun rounds rarely happens fast enough.

This data regarding officer shootings is all totally irrelevant to civilians, however. As I keep pointing out to folks, civilians are NOT peace officers. We cannot shoot under the same circumstances that they can. We don't have the same needs in bullet performance that they do.

Given that the information being discussed here is wound ballistics, I don't see why officer data isn't relevant. It isn't the situation of the shooting that is being discussed, wound ballistics. The bullets and anatomy don't care about the situation of the shooting or whether it is a bad guy being shot, home owner, or officer.
 

8shot357

Moderator
147 Grain

Haven't seen any 158-gr. in 9mm, but it's an excellent bullet in 38 Special (same .355 caliber as 9mm) formerly labeled as the "FBI" or "Chicago" load.

Prvi Partizan makes them in 9mm. I shot a box, they were real light recoil, and not very loud, more of a "POP" than a "BooM".

I think Midway has them.
 
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