I don't use an awful lot of Tula .45 ACP in my 1911 but it is nice to shoot a box or three every now and then and not have to worry about chasing brass. IMO extractor wear from steel cased is internet hearsay. As for barrel wear I agree with TunnelRat. If it even does accelerate wear it would take so long to do it that it would be a non issue
Shooting steel bullets in 45 ACP
- Thread starter the45er
- Start date
The only steel cased ammunition I shoot is 7.62 X 39 MM out of my AK's. They're designed around steel cased ammunition. I reload for everything else. So for me steel cased ammo isn't worth the tiny bit of savings it offers in pistol ammo. I can buy brass cased, boxer primed pistol ammo for just a few pennies more per round.
Right now I don't reload 9 MM or .45 ACP because factory ammo is so cheap. But at some point it won't be. Then I'll have 5 gallon pails of the stuff to reload. I also have the dies, powder, and bullet molds. So my guns will never go silent due to lack of ammunition.
Right now I don't reload 9 MM or .45 ACP because factory ammo is so cheap. But at some point it won't be. Then I'll have 5 gallon pails of the stuff to reload. I also have the dies, powder, and bullet molds. So my guns will never go silent due to lack of ammunition.
bamaranger
New member
cupro nickel
I've got some old WWI era (half moon clipped in original boxes!!) .45 acp that is indeed cupro nickel and was aware of that arrangement early on. But I believed that once copper/lead go developed as time went on, bi-metal for U.S. arsenal ammo became a thing of the past.
Clearly I was wrong. Live and learn.
Hope your feeling better Watson!!
I've got some old WWI era (half moon clipped in original boxes!!) .45 acp that is indeed cupro nickel and was aware of that arrangement early on. But I believed that once copper/lead go developed as time went on, bi-metal for U.S. arsenal ammo became a thing of the past.
Clearly I was wrong. Live and learn.
Hope your feeling better Watson!!
Jim Watson
New member
I got 'round to poking in my box of oddities.
A .45 ACP headstamp ECS 43 has a galvanized steel case and a copper plated steel bullet jacket. Magnetic on both ends.
A .45 ACP headstamp ECS 43 has a galvanized steel case and a copper plated steel bullet jacket. Magnetic on both ends.
When I first returned from the militsry, I was too poor to buy ammo.
a friend gave me a full case of WW2 /Milsurp .45 ACP. Steel cases and steel jacket bullets.
I fired all of them, and even reloaded the cases twice. (Note: reloading steel cases is a royal PITA and I do not recommend it.)
My Garand was fired many thousands of times with handloads using MilSurp 150 grain steel jacketed ball ammo. I even won two matches with them.
a friend gave me a full case of WW2 /Milsurp .45 ACP. Steel cases and steel jacket bullets.
I fired all of them, and even reloaded the cases twice. (Note: reloading steel cases is a royal PITA and I do not recommend it.)
My Garand was fired many thousands of times with handloads using MilSurp 150 grain steel jacketed ball ammo. I even won two matches with them.
Jim Watson
New member
Hatcher said early post war match issue was "selected lots" of (steel core) AP because it averaged more accurate than ball.
Phil Sharpe said 300 rounds of AP shot the accuracy out of a Model 70.
Phil Sharpe said 300 rounds of AP shot the accuracy out of a Model 70.
HisSoldier
New member
Just working with metals for the lest 30+ years I have to say that harder materials will wear a steel surface faster than softer metals. I brought up the possiblity that TMJ bullets, which are very thinly plated a few thousandths over soft lead cores, should be genterler on the riflings than the much thicker jackets of FMJ bullets, and was told that the copper alloy used is only marginally gharder than pure lead.
The reason I mentioned that in another forum is that the cast lead guys say all the time that cast bullets can allow a bore to last a very much longer time than jacketed bullets.
If however you take leading into the argument it's possible that the cure for that is even harder on bores than jackets, so you can see why a much thinner plated TMJ would allow deformation with less stress to the inner surfaces of the bore than full metal jacketed bullets.
Now if one of shooting wheel weights I don't know that there would be lower stresses, because it's the soft core of jacketed bullets that allows the jacket to conform more easily and probably a hard cast bullet may be worse!
I'm no authority on bullets, this is just reasoning based on metal working, when you push or pull a button down the bore the reason it forms riflings is because the button is many times harder than the barrel's metal, so the barrel metal does what the bully button demands, it flows into the form of the button's grooves which makes up the lands in the finished bore.
The exact opposite occurs to the bullet as it is first forced into the riflings. So the harder the bullet, and/or the softer the barrel material, the more likely the riflings will be stressed.
Then finally there is the wear that comes from higher temperatures caused by higher surface pressure when metals slide over metal without lubricant.
I do know wear happens faster when surfaces are under high pressure, harder jackets must increase that pressure.
Anyway, that's why I won't shoot either steel cases (Chamber life) or steel jacketed bullets (Barrel life). And I still believe plated TMJ lead bullets are the best for longevity, over thick jacketed FMJ's. The best of all for long barrel life is soft lead well lubed at low velocities.
If I'm wrong it sure can't hurt my barrel to err on that side.
The reason I mentioned that in another forum is that the cast lead guys say all the time that cast bullets can allow a bore to last a very much longer time than jacketed bullets.
If however you take leading into the argument it's possible that the cure for that is even harder on bores than jackets, so you can see why a much thinner plated TMJ would allow deformation with less stress to the inner surfaces of the bore than full metal jacketed bullets.
Now if one of shooting wheel weights I don't know that there would be lower stresses, because it's the soft core of jacketed bullets that allows the jacket to conform more easily and probably a hard cast bullet may be worse!
I'm no authority on bullets, this is just reasoning based on metal working, when you push or pull a button down the bore the reason it forms riflings is because the button is many times harder than the barrel's metal, so the barrel metal does what the bully button demands, it flows into the form of the button's grooves which makes up the lands in the finished bore.
The exact opposite occurs to the bullet as it is first forced into the riflings. So the harder the bullet, and/or the softer the barrel material, the more likely the riflings will be stressed.
Then finally there is the wear that comes from higher temperatures caused by higher surface pressure when metals slide over metal without lubricant.
I do know wear happens faster when surfaces are under high pressure, harder jackets must increase that pressure.
Anyway, that's why I won't shoot either steel cases (Chamber life) or steel jacketed bullets (Barrel life). And I still believe plated TMJ lead bullets are the best for longevity, over thick jacketed FMJ's. The best of all for long barrel life is soft lead well lubed at low velocities.
If I'm wrong it sure can't hurt my barrel to err on that side.
I will have to check on this. I don't think we did. Not "billions of rounds, anyway. I know the other side did.
As far as steel cased .45ACP, as far as I can find out, the US produced steel cased .45ACP ammo only in 1943, and only from one (EC) plant. There were possibly, other small runs of steel but nothing that was general issue.
What is interesting to note is that while, at the height of WWII we (essentially) experimented with steel case ammo, it was not adopted as standard, and in 1944, with the war still raging, we dropped manufacture of steel cased ammo.
Why do you think that might be?
Axis nations used a lot of steel cased ammo, our "allies at the time" the Soviet Union did. All nations used some quantity of steel cored ammo (AP, usually) and some used steel jacketed ammo in quantity.
That being said, it is worth remembering that what the military does, and finds acceptable and useful is NOT necessarily a good thing for civilian shooters.
The phrase "close enough for government work" applies to the military A LOT.
They don't particularly care if a certain ammo is hard on the guns or if it wears things out faster, as long as it works well enough to do the mission. Cost of repair isn't an issue with anyone until it impacts the mission.
There are service life standards, but these are rarely reached in small arms, and based on my experience inside the Army's Small Arms repair system in the 70s, said standards are rarely even checked, and accuracy is not one of the few that is checked. And the service is fine with that.
As an illustration, there is a standard of accuracy for overseas shipment. For the M16A1, it was 8 MOA. EIGHT minute of angle. How many of you AR owners would be happy if your AR won't shoot better than 8 MOA???
If the M16A1 wouldn't do 8MOA (or better) the Army would not approve its shipment overseas. Guns that failed to do 8 MOA were to be retained in the States for training use.
Now, here's the rub, units being deployed NEVER had their M16s tested to see if they met or failed to meet that standard. (if anyone can come up with proof any of them ever were, I'll gladly change "never" to "rarely"
)Serviceability inspections were done (when actually done) without firing or live ammo. Checks might have been done with gauges, though generally this wasn't done, either. Arms in the hands of user units were serviceable (function test only) were put in the conex, and shipped. Unserviceable ones turned in for repair, and/or exchange.
I mention this to point out that A) the military doesn't put the same priority on things that civilian owners do, and that B) even then, our military does not use steel cased ammo.
If you want to shoot steel cased stuff to save a few $, go ahead, its your gun and your wallet. It PROBABLY won't hurt your gun. You PROBABLY won't shoot enough that the different rate of wear will have any practical effect.
I'm a reloader, and I LIKE my guns. I don't shoot steel, and I'm not going to.
From the LuckyGunner website,
"The projectile features a bimetal jacket (contains steel and copper) and a lead core resulting in excellent ballistics characteristics."
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-230-gr-fmj-tula-500-rounds
I've shot many thousands (tens of thousands) of Tula (and Wolf) brand ammo through my various guns, including my 1911s. I find the ammo generally feeds and shoots very well. Shoot whatever ammo you want through whatever you want. I've especially no worries about shooting through my $1000 to $3000 1911s.
Where steel case doesn't work well for me:
-.38 Special revolvers (cases stuck in cylinder after firing)
-various Glocks with double-stack mags (ammo bunches up in the mag; mag spring unable to push stack of rounds to the top)
-.223 in my AR-15s (extractor often rips through the rim causing failures to extract)
"The projectile features a bimetal jacket (contains steel and copper) and a lead core resulting in excellent ballistics characteristics."
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-230-gr-fmj-tula-500-rounds
I've shot many thousands (tens of thousands) of Tula (and Wolf) brand ammo through my various guns, including my 1911s. I find the ammo generally feeds and shoots very well. Shoot whatever ammo you want through whatever you want. I've especially no worries about shooting through my $1000 to $3000 1911s.
Where steel case doesn't work well for me:
-.38 Special revolvers (cases stuck in cylinder after firing)
-various Glocks with double-stack mags (ammo bunches up in the mag; mag spring unable to push stack of rounds to the top)
-.223 in my AR-15s (extractor often rips through the rim causing failures to extract)
to be sure, I guess you'd have to ask them. But my guess would be that after various European steel cased ammo sold well (because of low cost) those American makers decided it was an untapped market they could get a share of.
Do note that, until the fall of the Soviet bloc, allowing Eastern European steel cased ammo onto the US market, US makers did not offer steel cased ammo, at all.
So my guess is that they make it, now, because its been proven that a segment of the ammo buying public will buy it, now.
Jim Watson
New member
Something to sell.
Note that they do not claim Match WINNING Grade.
Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
Shoot 9mm all the time out of pistols with no problems. $129.00 a case total price shipped to my door step with Target Sports. Or buy just 1 box at $6.43 with free shipping.
When you figure the cost differential, you could buy a helluva lot of barrels and extractors for the money you save ion steel case.
And if you figure that only world class competitors are going to shoot enough to worry about any alleged difference in wear, steel makes a lot of sense for those who do not reload.
I still use my handloads at the range, where I can sweep up empties with a broom. But when I go to the mountains, I take only steel in 9MM and 5,56, and 7.62.
I can't see crawling around on my knees trying to find cases in the grass.
And if you figure that only world class competitors are going to shoot enough to worry about any alleged difference in wear, steel makes a lot of sense for those who do not reload.
I still use my handloads at the range, where I can sweep up empties with a broom. But when I go to the mountains, I take only steel in 9MM and 5,56, and 7.62.
I can't see crawling around on my knees trying to find cases in the grass.
As far as in my 1911's, I've never shot any steel case ammo. I have shot a few thousand rounds thru a 9mm XDM and a Colt AR used in 3 gun. The main reason was it was cheap and we could'nt pick up our brass. Then it was aluminum 9mm and brass .223 for awhile. Now it's brass for everything as brass is fairly cheap.
seeker_two
New member
Depends on the gun. My Ruger P90 shoots it without any issue. My Taurus chokes on it, but has no issues with any brass ammo.
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Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Doc Holliday 1950
New member
Now I know why I would never buy the Rusky ammo in steel casing. Just never felt comfortable buying Tulamo or et al. I try to buy American made ammo but it looks like I'm going to have to learn to roll my own. Ugh.