Ship captains and crew...
- Thread starter hogdogs
- Start date
NPR did a piece on this a while back. They said there were two main ways.
1) They got up close with a rocket propelled grenade and threatened to sink the ship with it.
2) They sneak up on the boat in the night (using the wake for cover) and board before they're noticed.
Apparently there's some hesitation to use certain levels of violence to defend the ship because they're afraid of escalation. As it stands things usually work out with everybody getting home safely after somebody pays the ransom.
I guess I can see the reasoning, especially if you're a poorer country and don't really have a navy to back up your merchants. It will be interesting to see what happens now that they've taken an american ship though.
1) They got up close with a rocket propelled grenade and threatened to sink the ship with it.
2) They sneak up on the boat in the night (using the wake for cover) and board before they're noticed.
Apparently there's some hesitation to use certain levels of violence to defend the ship because they're afraid of escalation. As it stands things usually work out with everybody getting home safely after somebody pays the ransom.
I guess I can see the reasoning, especially if you're a poorer country and don't really have a navy to back up your merchants. It will be interesting to see what happens now that they've taken an american ship though.
I know if I were a captain of a commercial vessel, I would have armed crew on point in dangerous waters... ROE would be, "If any vessel other than an identified government boat approaches, OPEN FIRE!" Once one round if fired all others charged with defense would be expected to join in. A single grenade isn't likely to sink any ship and multiple rounds of 12 gauge would likely hold off all but the most hardened vessel. I think I found me a niche... I need to become the "Blackwater" of commercial shipping. Train the crews and defend these ships!
Brent
Brent
There are several reasons behind the lack of armed resistance.
1. These ships travel with very minimal crews. 20 men is a large crew - most have less. It takes almost 1/3 of that just to operate the ship at any given time so you don't have a lot of extra men available to stand security watches.
2. Ship owners are very reluctant to tell crews to resist. Doing so could open them up to potential legal liability if a crewmember is hurt or killed while resisting.
3. Merchant seamen are not generally trained in any kind of armed combat. They would be way out of their element.
I think the logical thing for these merchant companies is to hire an external security company that places an armed contingent on the vessel for the duration of its transit in Somali waters. As one armed ship exits the area, it would simply hook up with another one comming in and transfer the security detail.
1. These ships travel with very minimal crews. 20 men is a large crew - most have less. It takes almost 1/3 of that just to operate the ship at any given time so you don't have a lot of extra men available to stand security watches.
2. Ship owners are very reluctant to tell crews to resist. Doing so could open them up to potential legal liability if a crewmember is hurt or killed while resisting.
3. Merchant seamen are not generally trained in any kind of armed combat. They would be way out of their element.
I think the logical thing for these merchant companies is to hire an external security company that places an armed contingent on the vessel for the duration of its transit in Somali waters. As one armed ship exits the area, it would simply hook up with another one comming in and transfer the security detail.
Hey, Hogdogs, I could be wrong, but I thought the pirate's vessels were modern construction. Am I wrong?<evil voice> "Release.....the Dolphins!" "Bring the laser sharks to full charge", "All your base are belong to us!"
Um, hrmmmp, okay now that I have that out of my system. It seems to me that entrance to a ship on the water is somewhat constrained. I'd think you could create some "man-traps" at various places onboard to capture these guys or something.
Um, hrmmmp, okay now that I have that out of my system. It seems to me that entrance to a ship on the water is somewhat constrained. I'd think you could create some "man-traps" at various places onboard to capture these guys or something.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
The picture i have seen of them are small fiberglass and wood construction above deck. Neither of which is very resistant to 00 buck. I would not want to be on one with someone firing 00 buck at it from 50 or 60 yards.
I have not seen details on how these ships are actually boarded. I remember one very large container ship was taken. If the crew was resisting during the boarding you would have to use grappling hooks, rope ladders, etc. I can't believe it would be easy at all.
Maybe the sinking of the ship threat is the key. Many of the ships taken are not huge ships and one RPG might do them in. What I love about this most recent story is it sounds like the pirates were chasing them for 3 hours. Where were the US naval forces then? They couldn't send a Seahawk to help out in 3 hours? A burst of a 50 cal and the pirates would have bit the dust. I have to believe the cheapest way to defend against these attacks is a fleet of ships with four or five lightly armed seahawks a piece.
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3 hours would give "my" crew plenty of time to "counter" the incursion of pirates... I have spent countless hours on "glass" fishing boats and nowhere on board is safe from close range buckshot! These ships should not need to rely on naval military presence! Heck the clippers and other sailing profit earning vessels of yesteryear were protected by canons! If they were overtaken by piracy it was due to cowardice of our gunned!
Brent
Brent
Mr.Johnwilliams... Yes the approach vessels are non-hardened vessels... what is real funny is many are inflatable or "semi-rigid" inflatable craft. Neither of which are ready to absorb hard shot from a 12 gauge! I would also have lever action (semi-close range) and bolt action rifles... No man in his right mind want to have .30-06 incoming when aboard a boat...
Brent
Brent
What you have here is the ultimate end result of gun control utopia. Most shipping organizations strongly discourage carrying arms on board ship - a pirate might be harmed and insurance rates might go up. I've also read that some insurance companies forbid armed self defense.
The reality is that attacks on freighters would end in no time by simply stationing a half dozen well armed and well trained security people on board. But the hoplophobic in the media, shipping community, and the UN will continue to keep crews helpless. The truth be told the taking of an American flagged vessel (sovereign territory of the USA) with a US crew is an exception that's raised a few eyebrows. For the most part shipping companies have made a business decision that it's cheaper to replace murdered or maimed 3rd world crew members and pay a few million in ransom for the ship than it is to place security about vessels. Don't expect changes for the better because the ships and cargo are insured and the crews are cheap to replace.
The reality is that attacks on freighters would end in no time by simply stationing a half dozen well armed and well trained security people on board. But the hoplophobic in the media, shipping community, and the UN will continue to keep crews helpless. The truth be told the taking of an American flagged vessel (sovereign territory of the USA) with a US crew is an exception that's raised a few eyebrows. For the most part shipping companies have made a business decision that it's cheaper to replace murdered or maimed 3rd world crew members and pay a few million in ransom for the ship than it is to place security about vessels. Don't expect changes for the better because the ships and cargo are insured and the crews are cheap to replace.
I think this is just the same old understanding problem, on a massively larger scale.
The instant these pirates threaten the crew it stops being about the cargo and is about the threat to the crew's lives.
But no, the big corps see it as all about their (insured) cargo.
makes me want to puke.
I did hear that some companies are already starting to have trouble finding crews though so at least someone out there has their head on straight.
The instant these pirates threaten the crew it stops being about the cargo and is about the threat to the crew's lives.
But no, the big corps see it as all about their (insured) cargo.
makes me want to puke.
I did hear that some companies are already starting to have trouble finding crews though so at least someone out there has their head on straight.
I can think of a dozen responses I would have if I were the ship owner and none are TFL appropriate! I wouldn't have a single crew member that wasn't armed with a MINIMUM of 9mm pistol and would suggest 10mm .40 or better .45 cal! I also wouldn't run a commercial vessel without an "arm locker" dedicated to the security of the vessel. these insurance companies can "pound sand"! Make the policy for sinking only and leave the rest to the ship owner! Kiss my white "6" my boat has to make miles to make money and doing so means standing off the bad guys!
Like I said... I found a niche, I just need to figure out the legal means to do so.
Brent
Like I said... I found a niche, I just need to figure out the legal means to do so.
Brent
So what is the average "ransom"? I bet a crew of sub contractor security would be under $250,000 per trip in dangerous waters... Boat is worth 2 million minimum and cargo? Crew be danged... I would refund the fee if any boat I was charged with were captured. Bull crap! Light them sum bux up! As a subcontractor I would lay waste to any approaching small vessel or any vessel trying to "come aside" without previously approved intent...
Brent
overkill556x45
New member
Why don't they send a small Navy ship as an escort every time ships are in that area? Call it a "convoy training exercise". Issue a wartime ROE, and we're in business. A bunch of self-loading 5in guns would make cargo ships decidedly undesirable targets.
If we can't do that, then I'm all for giving the whole crew an AA-12 with the 25rd drum full of a mix of slug, 00 buck, and fin-stabilized grenade rounds. To quote TJ "Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute."
If we can't do that, then I'm all for giving the whole crew an AA-12 with the 25rd drum full of a mix of slug, 00 buck, and fin-stabilized grenade rounds. To quote TJ "Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute."