Semi-auto vs full-auto

44 AMP

Staff
Which laws would be violated?

Discussing the fine points of machine guns construction??

Maybe none.

Maybe "conspiracy to violate the NFA 34". Or perhaps something else. Their are some very complex laws out there that cover things most of us don't realize.

The difference lies in the details, what kind of case the ATF can build, and what the trial decides. The reason so many "class III" guys don't discuss such things is they have no desire to find out, personally.

Like "constructive possession", it is a legal theory I do not understand well, but it seems to be an area where you can be guilty of committing a crime without actually committing the crime.
 

CaptainO

Moderator
Model12Win is right. Full-auto only serve in a "suppressive fire" situation which is bloody rare! Aimed fire is the imperative. How do I know? Father was Navy Rifle Team WW2/Korean War. I learned this "at my daddy's knee" LITERALLY! No joke, no exaggeration, no "bull", just fact.

In the immortal words of the late Jack Paar, "I kid you not"!
 
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Theohazard

New member
Road_Clam said:
The "Class III" guys are their own circle. No uneducated novice outsiders are allowed. The Class III owners have spent a lot of time and money to LEGALLY posses registered Class III firearms. They also are closely monitored by the BATF. If you ask "What parts are different between semi and full auto" red flags immediately go up and now you are a threat. The Class III crew never talk full auto via the internet as it will just fester stupid and threatening questions by the unknowing. So the moral of this story is if you hear one at your local range, just respectfully admire it's coolness, don't ask questions and just leave it at that.
I agree with kcub, this is absolute baloney. I've spent a lot of time around owners of NFA firearms and they absolutely love sharing their hobby with other shooters. Heck, I own 6 NFA firearms that are either in my possession or in NFA jail, and I love nothing more than taking someone to the range and letting them shoot my toys. I love watching the look on someone's face when they shoot a silencer for the first time.
 

gyvel

New member
The "spray and pray" method evolved from our involvement in Vietnam.

It has been proven time and time again that slow, careful aimed fire is far more effective than "spray and pray."
 

Road_Clam

New member
Let me further clarify , I'm NOT stating that class III guys are unfriendly in fact I've conversated with a few at my gun club and they are very open to "show and tell" UNLESS you ask "can I convert my RRA to full auto"? Not the question to be asked...
 

robertsig

New member
Nobody needs to go 120mph in a car, but it's nice that the car can do it.

As somebody who will never own a full-auto gun, mostly because of finances, I can honestly say I still would like the option of it on my semi-autos if it was there. Even if never used, it still bugs me that some of my guns have been neutered.
 

Theohazard

New member
Road_Clam said:
Let me further clarify , I'm NOT stating that class III guys are unfriendly in fact I've conversated with a few at my gun club and they are very open to "show and tell" UNLESS you ask "can I convert my RRA to full auto"? Not the question to be asked...
When you say "class III guys" in this post and in post #14, are you referring to just machine guns or to all NFA firearms? The term "Class 3" is not reserved for machine guns only, but for all NFA firearms (machine guns, silencers, short barrel rifles, AOWs, etc.).

(And technically, there's no such thing as a "Class 3" firearm to begin with. "Class 3" is simply a type of tax that an FFL can pay to deal NFA firearms: Class 1 is an importer, Class 2 is a manufacturer and dealer, and Class 3 is just a dealer.)
 

barnbwt

New member
Is it overly broad for me to say the "non-class 3' crowd generally don't know what they're talking about? :rolleyes:

Any perceived hostility is due to sketchy or unhelpful questions that don't merit answer; try asking a pharmacist how methamphetamine is made from cough syrup some time and see how far you get. Asking isn't ilegal, nor telling, but it isn't something that comes up without ulterior motives or out of idle questioning. Neither is worth their time.

Now, ask how you make sure your gun project won't go full auto and they will probably talk your ear off and even volunteer to help. Context.

TCB
 

reynolds357

New member
Full auto is useful in very limited circumstances. The best use I found for it was in SWAT competition where every target had to have 3 killing hits. I would give every target 3 or 4 or 5 from the M-16. Time wise, semi autos can not compete will full autos on the competition courses that require 3 hits per target.
 

kcub

New member
I have a registered Steyr Aug full auto. I can stripe a target 3 times on full auto before recoil climbs off target, they won't all be killing shots. Or I could get all 3 shots accurate in the kill zone semi auto. With my Thompson I can do better in full auto.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Is it overly broad for me to say the "non-class 3' crowd generally don't know what they're talking about?

probably not, provided you recognize that there are exceptions. And this seems to be true with any and virtually every technical area. The "non-crowd" usually only knows hearsay and stories. And some of those stories are deliberate lies, that only people involved in the subject actually recognize.

And with guns, its even worse than many if not most other subjects.

Can't begin to tell you how many people have told me, over the years, and with complete honesty and faith, that, to get your semi auto to shoot full auto, all you have to do is "file the shear pin". They know this for a fact! They can't tell you what the "shear pin" is, where it is, or what it does, except that if you file it, your gun will shoot full auto!!!!

I'm part of the non-class 3 crowd, I don't own any NFA items. On the other hand, I used to repair machineguns for Uncle Sam, and I have shot them a bit...also understand the designs, features and functions common to full auto and select fire weapons, individual and crew served. Perhaps I'm an exception??

What I don't know as well as the class 3 guys are the details of the paperwork involved in civilian ownership. The guns, I know fairly well, and much better than the crowd who gets their wisdom from a TV screen on such matters.

Since so few people have actual hands on experience shooting machineguns, rumors, half truths and outright BS about them abound.

One of my favorite BS stories, and one almost universally believed, even by people who have actually shot one (once), is the myth about how the recoil of a Tommygun causes the muzzle to climb. (and climb up and to the right according to some, to the left for others...)

That IS what happens when undertrained shooters fire the Tommygun, but it isn't the gun doing it, it is the shooter.

Other than the fact that it is FUN, full auto has very little practical use, none for big game hunting, (even if it weren't legally prohibited) although an FA .22LR would make a nice pest gun, pest eradication & predator control isn't sport hunting.

Now, Select fire is a different matter. Although legally machine guns with all the restrictions, select fire allows full semi auto "utility" with full auto capability kept in reserve for "gravest extremes" and for those times you just want to rock & roll for fun.

In a way, select fire is the most modern iteration of the old US Army concept found on Krag & Springfield bolt actions, the magazine cutoff. The base idea was that you fired single aimed shots (reloading the chamber each time) and kept the loaded "high capacity" magazine (5rnds) in reserve for emergencies when rapid fire was needed.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
C'mon, guys, how a machinegun works is in the same category of secrecy as the idea that the grass is green or the sun rises in the east. There are books on exactly how an M16 or AK-47 or an FAL works. Aside from legality, converting a semi-auto may not be easy, and some parts would be hard to get, but it can be and has been done. Some news reports indicated that at least one of the guns used in San Bernardino had been made full auto.

Jim
 

barnbwt

New member
Some news reports indicated that at least one of the guns used in San Bernardino had been made full auto.
The claim was an attempt had been made, none were converted. Now, with the ATF, 'attempt' can mean a whole lot of things. I suspect the shelf had been ground down to allow a DIAS to be fitted, but probably didn't work & was abandoned. The shelf is not required, nor is removing it itself illegal; many makers do not include one, but tampering of a shelf would be assumed to be done for this reason by investigators.

TCB
 

robertsig

New member
Instead of starting a new thread...

Is there any point to a semi-auto version of the UZI or MP5? I mean, if you're just going to use it as a semi-auto carbine, aren't there better options out there like the Beretta Cx4 Storm? Since an UZI is not a tack driver, can anyone tell me what the allure is for those outside of full-auto?

I'm considering adding a 9mm carbine to my list and in addition to the usual civilian suspects, those came up as options from my research.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
"Is there any point to a semi-auto version of the UZI or MP5?"

The same use as for any other short, light rifle firing a low/medium power pistol cartridge. In other words, the same use as for a 16" barrel Winchester 1892. They can be used for plinking, home defense and hunting small game where legal.

But the main appeal of those guns is that they are as close as most of us will ever come to owning the "forbidden fruit" of a full auto weapon. That is a common phenomenon; it leads to the fake Gucci purses and "school of" Rembrandts owned and displayed by folks who could never hope to own an original.

Even less pointless, IMHO, was the fad of a few years ago, of installing fake selectors on M1A rifles just to "tweak" LEO's. I knew of one case where a man spent an afternoon "helping the police" until an expert could determine that the gun was not an unregistered M14.

Jim
 

44 AMP

Staff
That is a common phenomenon; it leads to the fake Gucci purses and "school of" Rembrandts owned and displayed by folks who could never hope to own an original.

For me, it only lead as far as a Tommygun, semi only, with 5 inches too much barrel. :) No interest in Uzi or MP5, would consider a semi MP40, but US laws get in the way of the original barrel length, and I simply don't like the 16" ones on most faux SMGs. The Tommygun's extra length doesn't loo ALL that bad, with the Cutts on the end...

 

CaptainO

Moderator
I always thought that the M1921M1 would make a fun "pest control" carbine. I'm not fond of racoons (because of their inclination to kill the neighborhood cats and tear up insulation of houses). Killing both racoons and skunks at safe (for me) ranges would make for a relaxing bit of sport.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for wild life as long as it remains in the wild. Earlier today, the pesky "neighborhood deer" (two yearlings and a huge doe) are a genuine "pain in the arse" of the area. The ODWF "protects" these vandals. They refuse to remove these rodents and the gardens in our little town pay the price.

If i drew a 10mm Auto or a .41 Remingtom Magnum and shot one of them, there would be the devil to pay.
 

rmh3481

New member
Captain O,
This reply is off topic but nevertheless may help you. I had the same problem with deer eating my garden. Also, had problems with ground hogs.

I solved the problem for less than $100 using a fence charger, and an old battery. I put up a wire fence using insulators on poles. I used 5 levels. All wired together with a long piece of rebar as a ground.

I fought the deer for years trying all different kind of things, and none worked until this. There was enough pop from the charger to fire a spark plug. A deer or ground hog sticking his wet nose on that fence got another thought quick. POW!

If you or anyone else for that matter needs help setting one of these up just send me a private message.
 
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