Semi-auto pistol with locking action?

[Walt Sherrill]

now here's a couple that don't move in relation to the sights..

The original discussion was about whether locking the slide could improve accuracy or had other benefits.

My point in my earlier replies wasn't to denigrate or overlook OTHER recoil systems -- your examples above are good ones. We were addressing the effect of locking the slide.

My comments were intended in support my contention that LOCKING THE SLIDE on a most semi-autos doesn't change accuracy potential -- as the things that lead to the best accuracy must be in place before the trigger is pulled -- slide movement is after the fact!

If you have to move key components to load the semi-auto, precision fit is still critical -- as the components still have to return to the same place for each shot (or in the case of the locked slide) the next shot. If barrel and sights aren't changed during the loading process or cycling, then it's a none-issue, but locking the slide also adds nothing to the accuracy equation.

Your points, above are valid -- and there are bunches of target .22s with fixed barrels and sights that are KNOWN for their accuracy. Silenced Ruger .22s were also used for assassination work in Vietnam, and pictures and stories can be found about their use on the net with just a little patience. Target .22s (and some .32s) are in a world by themselves.

My Kadet Kit, mounted on a CZ-85 Combat frame is simply outstanding. Like many .22 designs, ONLY THE BOLT moves: barrel and sights are a single assembly -- and how the .22 upper assembly fits on the frame has little effect on the gun's accuracy. I've no experience with the AMT you show (same gun from one of the Dirty Harry movies?), but it looks like a .22 on a LOT of steroids!! Some fixed barrel guns have slides which carry the sights, and the slide/sights move with each shot, so proper slide to frame fit is an issue there.

The Luger has movement between components and that can affect sight alignment -- just not a LOT. I've had a couple of Lugers and they CAN be tack-drivers. Consistent fit between the barrel which moves on the frame, the breech assembly which connects to toggle components (one of which, on some models, has the rear sight) is still important. Wear, or slop during manufacture can still affect consistent lockup. The artillery versions of the Luger have both the front and rear sights on the noticeably longer barrel; in theory, that gun could be VERY accurate./I] I've never seen one in the real world -- only photos.

Back to locking the slide: for most of the guns we've discussed, precision fit is still needed to allow components to consistently realign after each shot (or during loading) jf accuracy is to be optimal. If the gun doesn't lock everything up exactly the same before each shot, accuracy will be affected. Without that consistent lockup, locking the slide before the shot is like closing the barn door after the livestock have gotten out.

As noted in the original linked article -- locking the slide does make the weapon quieter and that was why the S&W 39 guns had that feature.

 

[44 AMP]

Also, and I'm kind of surprised that 44 AMP didn't suggest this one...
Although not a design feature as such that it was meant to work in this manner, it seems to me that a Wildey semi-auto Magnum pistol SHOULD be able to pull this off due to it's adjustable gas system. This assuming you had some loads cooked up that were not full-boat AND you opened up the gas system to it's full ability...

Of course, I've never even handled a Wildey and IIRC, 44 AMP has one, so he would be able to tell us if this is even possible.

I thought about mentioning the Wildey, as it is another pistol where the barrel does not move (tilt) in relation to the sights, but like the Desert Eagle, P.38 and some others, the rear sight does move with the slide, it just stays entirely in the same plane as the barrel.

Also, the Wildey does not have any kind of a "lock" to hold it shut (keep it from cycling)

Sevens, you have the right idea, just the wrong direction. You CAN set the Wildey up to be a manually operated repeater (not cycle semi auto). But you do it by CLOSING OFF the gas system, not opening it up.

You can also shut off the gas system on an FAL, although I have never done it. I have shut off the gas system on my M1A (M14), the spindle valve provides for this, and it is non adjustable, either ON or OFF. OFF renders the M14 a manually operated repeater. We were taught that you shut off the gas system to fire rifle grenades, on for regular ammo.

Thank you so much, you have now put the idea of a suppressed Wildey in my head....

 

[HighValleyRanch]

Something like the High Standard Supermatic Trophy.
The barrel is fixed, the rear sight is a bridge sight, so they don't change to the barrel.
You could easily fashion some sort of lock on the rear bridge sight that prevents the slide from coming back, making it locked.
The front barrel can easily be removed and machined for a suppressor.

 

[Sevens]

I suppose my line of thinking with the adjustable gas system and using the term "open" was more in the manner of a bleed-off, as in... opening it so that the gas were allowed to harmlessly escape rather than directed to a piston to do work.

But yeah, as I have never even held one, I was merely going by what was in my head. Not reality! Haha.

Now...
A supressed monster magnum automatic...
I suppose you could be the first!

 

[PSP]

Didn't the first version of HK's MK23 have a lock?

Yes, the original design did have a lock, located at the trigger guard, to prevent the slide from cycling. It's called the Schieber Device. I bet it made for a heck of a recoil as these were developed for very hot .45acp ammo.

 

[WIL TERRY]

In years past I shot a 1911A1 that had a slide lock on it. The recoil was tamed to darn near no more than a healthy beer burp. I'll swear now that 90% of the recoil you feel from a 1911 is the slide impacting the frame upon functioning.
A slide locked M645 was even milder.
And so it goes...

 

[Sevens]

Can you tell us more about both the locked 1911 and more specifically the 645?

How was the lock implemented?
Who owned these pistols?
What was their motivation for locking them up?

I find this to be very interesting. Especially the 645 as the S&W pistols are of great interest to me.

 

[DPris]

Terry,
I wish I lost 90% of the .45 ACP recoil in my Smith 625 without a reciprocating slide, but it stays a little above beer burp levels in recoil.
Denis

 

[gyvel]

Chinese Type 64 is exactly what you are wondering about. It is a purpose built weapon that can be fired semi-auto or with the breech firmly locked closed.

 

[45_auto]

In years past I shot a 1911A1 that had a slide lock on it. The recoil was tamed to darn near no more than a healthy beer burp. I'll swear now that 90% of the recoil you feel from a 1911 is the slide impacting the frame upon functioning.

Either you were shooting some super-wimpy beer-burp loads, or you have a very selective memory. Locking the slide doesn't rescind the laws of physics.

Can you tell us more about both the locked 1911 and more specifically the 645?

How was the lock implemented?

Easiest way I've seen to quickly modify a 1911 to lock the slide is to modify an extra thumb safety so it doesn't engage the sear. Used to be fairly common back in the 1970's. NOTE: THIS ALSO MEANS THAT THE THUMB SAFETY DOES NOT FUNCTION AS A SAFETY! Make sure you mark the modified safety so you can identify it!

Safety up locks the slide and makes it a single shot. Safety down it functions normally.

Takes about 10 seconds to swap safety's back to the normal one when you're through playing.

 

[Sevens]

That's reasonable but you present it in a manner that makes it sound like "this is how guys always did it!" and for sure, it makes me ask who was doing it, and for what purpose?

Not specifically who, like names of people. Just-- what kinds of shooter and pistoleros had a use or need to lock a slide closed for shooting...?!

Also, it's why I asked specifically about the S&W 645. That pistol doesn't have a bug cutout in the left side of the slide near the rear that just begs to be locked up. So I'm curious about the way someone went about locking up a 645.

 

[45_auto]

That's reasonable but you present it in a manner that makes it sound like "this is how guys always did it!" and for sure, it makes me ask who was doing it, and for what purpose?

They were 1911's with threaded barrels and silencers. Not sure who was using them or their purpose (not my MOS), but they were common items in the 9th infantry division arms rooms in Vietnam in the early 70's. I was S2, we played with them on the range a few times but never actually used them in the field. I don't recall the silencers as being very effective.

Not specifically who, like names of people. Just-- what kinds of shooter and pistoleros had a use or need to lock a slide closed for shooting...?!

I don't know what they were used for or who was using them, but the guns were issued out of the arms rooms fairly regularly.