Sell them separately or assemble them?

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T. O'Heir

New member
"...appreciate the value of handloads..." It's not the value of reloading. It's the unknown skill and experience of the guy doing the reloading. A guy you don't know. A guy who may be brand new to reloading and loads cases that have been fired 100 times without using a manual or a scale. Or some twit who thinks manuals are written by lawyers and max loads are not real. Because he thinks it's silly.
Liability is a very real issue. Liability insurance costs a fortune. It's why a lot of small businesses cannot get off the ground or go out of business. Isn't anything new either. And so does defending yourself against frivolous law suits.
Anyway, it's always better to sell stuff separately. Widens your market, if nothing else. A guy might want the components and not the rifle. Etc. Etc.
 
N

Nathan

New member
totaldla said:
Liability is something you forum old women make up - you will never find a single legal case of it.

A lot of guys don't reload, and 45-70 ammo is expensive.
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Who are you insulting? Women? Me?

I'm a solid reloader, but I'm not reloading for another gun or shooter. Ammo companies have pressure test equipment and expertise in consumer behavior. They also have lawyers to fight their battles for them. I just have me! I'm out!
 
R

RC20

New member
I shoot others reloads - don't understand the paranoia.
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So let me tell you a real life incident. This is not internet, I was there, I saw it. I doubt it will change your mind but for those who real do listen and learn.

Shooting at the gun range one day a cease fire is suddenly called, we are looking around as to why.

A cluster of people at the far end. As we look you can see blood, a gun barrel 15 feet down range and on closer inspection, bits and pieces of a gun scattered around the one bench.

Further looking finds a guy with blood all over his face. Another guy who has a cheek laid open.

So, what happened?

An employee of a gun shop was sighting in a gun for a client with reloads.

The gun blew up. A modern Winchester Model 70.

The employee lost 5 teeth (the scope came back and hit him in the mouth)

The bystander caught some of the debris from the gun blowing up. Not pretty but ok with some stiches.

Latter as we cleaned up the gun remnants a piece of metal was found deeply imbedded in the back wall. If it had been a human being, it would have cut deeply. Any artery severed and you would have bled out and died.

In your eye? Gone. Other places you might not father any children.

So you want to know why we don't shoot someone else reloads?

I am happy to send my pictures to anyone that PMs me their email address.

I can't PM pictures directly.
 
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H

HiBC

New member
To say it another way,for myself, your opened can of powder is not something I will use.It has no value to me.Better you should keep it.
Your brass has value if I am buying the rifle.I would give fair price for the brass.
The bullets have value,unloaded,if they are a bullet I would use.Once again,fair price.

If you offer me 300 reloads,I shoot my own reloads. I have a brother and a friend I trust to load. That's it.I don't use commercial reloads.I might Black Hills.
So,if you offered 300 reloads with a deal,I'd use my press and a vise grips to pull the bullets.They would go in the casting lead.
The powder would go on the lawn.I'd use the brass.
It would be better if you did not waste your time and mine.

And,I rarely buy factory ammo.I shoot handloads almost exclusively.
 
P

Pathfinder45

New member
It is a proven fact that you can be successfully sued for selling hot coffee if your customer scalds themselves. If you sell your reloads and the buyer gets injured shooting your reloads, you might successfully defend yourself in court, (but I doubt it), and very possibly go bankrupt if you win, and almost certainly so if you lose. If you want to sell reloads, the safest way to do so, is to incorporate the business, get licensed and insured. That way, your liabilities can be limited to the corporation, while your personal life is kept separate and safe. Plus, you still need to consult a lawyer that knows more about this stuff than my unprofessional opinions. Still want to sell reloads? I don't think so....
 
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g.willikers

New member
To re-enforce what RC20 said about the dangers of other folks reloads:
A fellow I knew, from a range where we both were members, decided to go into the retail reloading business.
One day he brought a selection of his wares to the range and passed them out for demonstration purposes.
They looked good and were quite a bit less expensive that the usual sources.
And they seemed to shoot well, too.
Everyone seemed interested right up until one of his rounds blew the top of his own revolver up through the roof.
Ahh, no thanks.
 
R

RC20

New member
The OP talked about loading up rounds as part of a gun sale, not purely selling them at the range.

I think the answers should address the merits of that.


g.wilkers is spot on in the blowing up of re-loads. That is relevant.

How much the insurance company paid for the guy with his mouth wiped out is hard to say. 50k or more in dental work alone.

Lost wages, Workmans Comp? Lawsuit on top of that? We could easily be talking 500k.

The business will have insurance.

Do you have insurance that protect yourself from a lawsuit?

If you do not, or its not enough then your assets become part of it.

In other words you house, guns, car etc.
 
S

ShootistPRS

New member
Selling reloads with the gun it not a good idea. It adds no value because most people would not shoot them. They will be taken apart sized and reloaded so you are better off just supplying the brass.

Sell the rifle and dies separately if you want to get the real value out of it. You can sell the brass alone or with the dies but if it has been fired more than once it has little value to most loaders.
 
D

dahermit

New member
How much the insurance company paid for the guy with his mouth wiped out is hard to say. 50k or more in dental work alone.
Lost wages, Workmans Comp? Lawsuit on top of that? We could easily be talking 500k.
The business will have insurance.
Do you have insurance that protect yourself from a lawsuit?
If you do not, or its not enough then your assets become part of it.
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The heck with liability...I just do not want a gun blowing-up in my face. I have observed enough other people being idiots relative to the things they do (texting while driving), in life, I am not about to trust that they took pains/have the ability to construct safe handloads. When it comes to something like the 45-70 it is more problematic still with it's "three levels" of handloads. One level for the "weak" actions like rolling blocks, the second level for modern lever actions and then there is the third level for ultra-strong Ruger #1's. Just someone telling me that, "Oh, these are safe in your gun...", and taking their word for it is about as foolhardy as it comes, despite Ad Hominem attacks with adjectives like, "silly", and "women" on those who choose to error on the side of caution.
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
The term "paranoia" refers to irrational fears and mistrust and delusions of persecution. That's not what's happening here. These concerns are legitimate and rational, especially when you live in a society where people will sue you over things nobody with common sense would think possible to do. If you are around long enough you see all sorts of stupid things done, particularly involving mechanical things that need some common sense to be operated. Motor vehicles, heavy equipment, power tools, electricity. They all have their Darwin Award recipients on a fairly regular basis. Reloading is another mechanical activity that requires some common sense and understanding and attention to detail.

If you doubt the above, just read through all 8 pages of the currently active thread, "The dumbest reloading thing I've ever done survey".
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
"It is illegal to sell reloaded ammunition with out the right federal license."

WRONG.

Here we go with the "ATF RULES SAY YOU CAN'T SELL RELOADS AT ALL OR YOU'RE BREAKING THE LAW!!!!"

Because, somehow, by loading 20 or so shells and selling them with the rifle makes you a "manufacturer."

Bravo Sierra.

There have been multiple threads on this in the past, and it seems that most people who cite the rule are reading it wrong.


Let's take a look at the answer on that page link...

"Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

No, if the person reloads only for personal use."

The important information is in the first sentence, and is contained in 3 words...

"livelihood and profit." Not livelihood OR profit. The word is AND, meaning that BOTH have to be true before you're required to obtain a manufacturing license.

That means, according to ATF's answer, in order to be considered a manufacturer you must:

1. Be generating at least a portion of your annual income by selling reloaded ammunition.

AND

2. You must be selling the ammunition at a profit (and it requires selling the ammo at a profit to meet the first criteria. If you don't sell at a profit, you don't generate income).

While AFT nowhere defines what constitutes a liveliehood in dollars or percentages, but I would think it would have to rise at least to a level to provide for your basic living expenses.

The concept of profit is also an easy one to get around. If you sell the reloads for basic cost of the components and don't start charging for your time, you're not selling at a profit.


In other words, if you're not making a considerable portion of your income from selling ammunition you're reloading AND you're not profiting on what you do sell, you are NOT a manufacturer.


Really gotta ask...

Why does anyone think selling a few boxes of reloads makes you a manufacturer, but selling a couple of guns does NOT make you a dealer?
 
B

buck460XVR

New member
Really gotta ask...

Why does anyone think selling a few boxes of reloads makes you a manufacturer, but selling a couple of guns does NOT make you a dealer?
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Good question. Apparently not many folks here go to garage sales and estate auctions. I see ammo, both factory and reloaded for sale at both and have yet to see anyone busted by the BATF. 300 rounds of 45-70 for a Guide Gun is probably a lifetime worth of ammo for most folks, and whoever buys the OPs gun, will probably still have some left for the next buyer.

Me, I would try to sell the gun, bullets, brass and dies as a set. Then, if I had an interested buyer that does not reload and wants reloaded ammo, I'd load them up for him after he bought the components from me. Recovering the cost of components and getting a good price for the gun would be my primary concern, and if stuffing the brass seals the deal, then so be it. But if not needed and I'm going to give someone a deal, they can stuff their own. If I had been responsibly reloading for the same gun in the past, I would have no qualms about someone else shooting ammo I have already deemed safe in it it.
 
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