Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

[spacemanspiff]

(not harping on you mvpel, just gonna drive home a point to some other posters in this thread).

no matter how a person decides to carry, or even if they dont, situational awareness should remain at the same level. when i go concealed, it doesnt mean i am any less alert as when i go open.

and i enjoy open carry because i do live in a place where no one cares. walk into a stop and rob and you're more likely to get in a conversation with a clerk about how they'd rather be at the range shooting than working a cash register. stop by a pawn shop and no one bats an eye at the hardware on your hip. go into a grocery store where a dozen girl scout troops are selling cookies and no one freaks out.

its my belief that if more people like mvpel did open carry and helped get the average person accustomed to the fact that responsible adults can carry however and whatever they choose (wherever legal), eventually no one will pitch a fit because someone is armed.
yeah, i know its more pipe dream, and most would say it hurts our cause more than helping it, but i dont subscribe to that defeatist attitude.

 

[Gunstar1]

Hawgleg44

"If officer safety means nothing to any of you, don't bother calling when you need help. You would be putting the officer in danger by doing that."

That is not the point. The "book" says they cannot do what they did, "officer safety" or not.

"Officer Safety" does not give police the power to violate their own rules and my rights when there is NO trace of wrong doing.

Now, mvpel accepts he should have paid more attention, but what if he did? How would the situation be different? Does this mean if the police officer is sneaky, only then can he violate your rights and department policy? If mvpel caught them sneaking up on him, would they have had to go by the rules?

Open carry is legal, he was doing nothing illegal... exactly how is this whole situation his fault?

Lets see, he was in a bookstore reading a book.
The police could have approched and waited/watched mvpel until they caught his attention.
They could have approched him and "at the ready" ask if they could speak with him.
They could have talked to the manager and found out he was just shopping (the manager was aware of the gun but did not seem concerned).

This is not a cop bash, a friend of mine is in the Sheriff's department. However, if the police cannot follow thier own rules then they should not be police officers. "Police Safety" is no excuse, if you accept minor violations then you should welcome the major ones when they happen.

Risk is a part of their job. Police cannot be allowed to violate their rules or our rights to lower their risk. Either follow the rules and accept the risk or don't be a police officer.

 

[FrankDrebin]

How did mvpel let other armed people sneak up on him from behind? Your gun is worse than useless if other people know you have it, but you don't know what's going on around you. Instead of looking for your pound of flesh, I'd thank the officers for teaching you a lesson that you apparently needed to learn: Either hide your gun, or be aware of the world around you. Someone who carries openly and unaware is dangerous.

 

[JerryM]

Rich,

I must take issue with your statement that the shirt tail out is a dead give away, and that we all print.

I have always worn my shirt tail out. It is square and designed to be worn that way.
I sometimes help in a CCW class, and always wear a gun. It is usually in an OWB pancake, but often an compact 1911 in a Sparks EX IWB.. No one has ever suspected that I am armed, and when we get to the part of the class where I discuss such things, all say that they had no idea. The next classes I also am armed, and although they know that I am they cannot see it.

I have my friends who also carry check me when we are out together, and they say they have never made me.

If one is careless as to how he wears the gun, and if he is determined to bend over at the waist, it will print. But I am careful how I stand and if I need to get something from the floor, I do not bend from the waist.

One must be aware of the need to conceal, and dress around the gun and holster he carries.

In NM we can carry openly. However, I do not normally because it would be relatively easy to take my gun by a couple of people, and also it does make some people concerned. Sadly, some of the LEOs do not know that open carry is legal. On the trip to the range I often stop in a Love's and then I carry openly. No one ever seems to notice.

I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to open carry, and even if it is done to "train the public." For me, it is not a good idea to carry openly in some places.

Jerry

 

[OF]

mvpel is the very definition of patient. The amount of abuse he has taken at the hands of his 'allies' is disgusting. This argument has gone around and around so many times I think I'm going to barf from the spinning.

The guy has said (ad-freaking-nauseum) that he faults himself for not being more aware of the situation. THAT SAID, the cops broke the law and assaulted him for which, contrary to some opinions here, it's not his responsibility to either apologize for or (I can hardly believe this next part) thank the cops for the assault(!).

Now not only is this entire episode mvpel's fault, but he should be thankful for having his rights violated! Unreal.

- Gabe

 

[FrankDrebin]

Nope, I didn't say he should be thankful his rights were violated, I said he should be thankful that he learned that other people knew he had a gun, while he had no clue of what was going on around him. And that should convince him to leave his gun home before he gets someone else hurt, carry it concealed, or be damn sure he knows what's going on around him at all times when he feels the need to carry a gun and proclaim to the whole world that he's carrying it by displaying it in all its glory for everyone to see.

 

[OF]

Suffice it to say, Frank, that your condescending little rant is more than a bit insulting. Hell, you're not even bitching at me and I'm insulted.

Who was going to get hurt, Frank? Let me guess, you're all for the 2nd Amendment, as long as it's done your way. Everyone but you is a walking time bomb? An accident waiting to happen? Some people just shouldn't be allowed to carry guns. They might hurt someone. Tell me Frank, do you go into sweats imagining a world where open carry is not only legal, but practiced with some regularity?

Not to mention the pure inanity of attacking mvpel for having the audacity to let himself be assaulted by a gang of cops. How untactical of him.

- Gabe

 

[OF]

feels the need to carry a gun and proclaim to the whole world that he's carrying it by displaying it in all its glory for everyone to see.

Point taken, Frank. You 'disagree' with the concept of open carry. Well put. Guess we should just go hide deeper and deeper in the closet...

- Gabe

 

[Gunstar1]

And the police should be thankful that Mvpel did not catch a glance of them sneaking up on him, draw his gun and fire.

The police should also be thankful that Mvpel did not have a backup weapon, that the gun they took was not really easy to fire, and nothing serious happened when they assaulted a civillian.

I know police officers are not always situational aware even though they have training and experience. Does that mean I can remind them by sneaking up and grabbing their gun?
I should not be in trouble since I reminded him that other people knew he had a gun. He should not file charges, he should be thankful after I scolded him on carrying a gun and not being aware.

 

[spacemanspiff]

And that should convince him to leave his gun home before he gets someone else hurt, carry it concealed, or be damn sure he knows what's going on around him at all times when he feels the need to carry a gun and proclaim to the whole world that he's carrying it by displaying it in all its glory for everyone to see.

yes, we should all be ashamed of the fact that we are cowards that carry guns, shame on us! and if we do decide to carry concealed, we should go to confession every week and get atonement for our transgressions. we are evil, bad sinners for wanting to carry guns, oh lordy lordy, will we ever get saved???

if the antis can make enough noise to make us ashamed of our guns, why cant we make enough noise to make them ashamed of their stupidity?

 

[FrankDrebin]

Point taken, Frank. You 'disagree' with the concept of open carry. Well put. Guess we should just go hide deeper and deeper in the closet...

Carrry however you want, it's your right, common sense, or the lack thereof notwithstanding.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Who was going to get hurt, Frank?

If I was the hold-up man, and I saw him carrying a gun, he'd likely get hurt during an armed robbery that he did not know was taking place if he even came close to moving his hand toward his gun.

 

[OF]

Thank you for dropping your tactical wisdom on us. I'll be sure to include in my next class.

- Gabe

 

[TheBluesMan]

:barf:

 

[sar]

Carry how you want, live (or die) with the results. I think all have learned - MVPEL learned that he had to have at least some minimal level of awareness especially when carrying and the Manchester PD learned about what the laws are concerning open carry.

However, I think the Manchester PD is having a good laugh that a guy who was sipping a cup of latte and looking at sweater patterns (then used terms like wolf and sheeple in his letter to them) got disarmed without ever seeing it coming is being defended by someone who shot herself in the leg. Seems like quite the circus.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Thank you for dropping your tactical wisdom on us. I'll be sure to include in my next class.

Not tactical wisdom, just first-hand knowledge from talking to people who have been in situations where they would have been better off had the bad guy not known they were armed. I personally know at least 3 people who walked in on hold-ups where the hold-up man knew they were armed before they were aware there was a hold-up going on. 2 lived, one didn't. Teach your class and carry your gun any way that makes you happy.

 

[SturmRuger]

Any news Mvpel?

 

[P95Carry]

Yep - been wondering too.

 

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

I haven't bothered to go through all 7 +pages of responses but to the person this incident happen to I would say this. You sir lost your situational awareness regarding the firearm you were carrying. Assuming your state requires full concealment at all times other then when using it, then you are the one totally responsible for provoking whatever reactions incurred to people or police seeing the firearm.

If you are so stupid as to "forget" that you were carrying a firearm when you left your jacket in the car then I question you even having the privilege to carry a concealed firearm.

There are many states that passed this law with much reluctance. We don't need to have scatterred brained individuals out there giving us all a black eye and providing reasons for states to reconsider allowing CCW privileges.

Trying to make the actions of the police the focus of your plight rather than the plain hard fact that you provoked the situtation by loosing situatioanal awareness is screaming to me that you should not have a CCW privilege until you fully understand the responsibilities that go along with that privilege.

 

[dasmi]

Open carry is perfectly legal in his state.