Scout Scopes

[bamaranger]

lots of dead horses

Well, we certainly beat this one to death. Rereading my posts, I may have gotten a bit testy, not really intended, sometimes it just comes out that way.
No need for caps, .....sorry.

I'm with Aagard on the scout scope, not completely sold. My hunting with an IER revealed issues for me in seeing the reticle against dark backrounds, and glare if backlit with low sun. Aagard and others had the same issues. For the hunting I do, the low magnification was not a problem, most shots under 100 yds. The system was superior to irons......but not the great jump ahead of conventional mounted LPV scopes Cooper claimed. He worked with the components he had, I wonder what he would have thought of the modern red dot.

What was truth was the convenience in handling a short tidy .308 bolt. Ruger and Savage need to remember that and nix all the bells and whistles they've hung on their current offerings.

 

[JohnKSa]

Fun discussion.

Aagard was a big proponent of scopes, but I think he was of the opinion that forward mounting wasn't necessary, problematic even. The glare issue you mention is certainly a potential problem.

I remember reading somewhere that Aagard frequently had visitors to his house participate in a quick shooting test to see if they were faster with iron sights or a conventional scope and that the results showed that the scope was faster. That was, I believe, in response to the frequent assertion of the time that fast iron sights were faster than optics.

It would be interesting to know if he ever did similar testing to compare forward and conventionally mounted scopes.

I wonder what he would have thought of the modern red dot.

I've been thinking the same thing.

Imagine having the opportunity to get Cooper and Aagard together to test their preference of scope vs. each other vs. the new holographic/red dot sight technology.

 

[bamaranger]

article

That's Cooper's original article on his scout rifle.......some date it 1984, others '85.

 

[bamaranger]

for sure

1984 for sure

 

[bamaranger]

yes....more

Here's an early article (1966) where Cooper extolls the virtue of the Rem 600. Buhler Code 6 mount, and the Leupold 2x pistol scope. Critiques in classic Cooper fashion, 5 other carbines.

The Carbine Compromise - Jeff Cooper, 1966, Guns and Ammo, sorry I can't post a link, but a search will yield a website posting same.

Sure to ruffle some feathers, but I enjoyed every word.

 

[2damnold4this]

I wonder what Cooper would have thought about some of the LPVO scopes we have today. Would he have taken one of those over an IER scope?

 

[DonR101395]

I wonder what Cooper would have thought about some of the LPVO scopes we have today. Would he have taken one of those over an IER scope?

That’s what I did d on mine, a 1-8 is much more useful than a 2 or 2.75 scout scope. Especially if you’re using a box mag fed gun like the Ruger GSR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HiBC]

I'm not arguing "Better vs best" ,just sharing one of my "Scout scope rifle"
experiences.
I built a couple of .375 Taylor rifles after an Alaska bear experience that was not a hunt.
One rifle was built on a 1903A3 action . (From when they were a$50 gunshow option)
Brownells offered a pre-barrel contoured quarter rib,(Dakota? Maybe) for mounting the classic express sights. IIRC it was 1/2 in wide.
Warne,at the time,used a proprietary 1/2 in wide dovetail for its lever QD rings.

HMMM. So the Dakota Rib was fitted to a #4 Shilen stainless barrel and the Warne dovetail was machined into the quarter rib.
A folding open sight was also fitted to the quarter rib. Front sight was an NECG banded ramp with changable front blades,

A Leupold 2 3/4 x Scout scope went into the Warne rings,
At the time,I could still buy a Fajen stock. I got a walnut/walnut laminate,about 5/16 laminations, a slender schnabel forend,no cheekpiece.
Similar to a G+H or FWT M-70.

I admit Scout rifles just don't look right. Like an ugly car.

But we took a couple of tires and fitted cardboard targets to them.

At the ranch was a hill we could roll the tire targets down. Moving,bouncing targets. Like the sporting clays rabbit.

We were launching 270 gr bullets at about 2650 fps.

It was 2 eyes open,like wing shooting with crosshairs. And a .375

It worked really well! It was a day of grins and giggles! For what I had in mind,that package was a success.

And,per Mr Cooper ,for a 300 yd capable practical rifle,it just works.

Even if its ugly.

Not every gun has to be tailored to shooting fruit flies at 650 yds.

I gave that rifle to a friend I never went back to AK.

 

[bamaranger]

Aagard

Finn A. in one of those from the mid '90's articls did compare a fixed 3x with a 2-3/4x IeR, , whose I do not recall. It was not snap shooting, but picking out a target of some type in a mildly shaded spot at some reasonable distance. I've put up all my articles and not gonna dig them out again, but.......

Aagard commented that the old Leupold 3x beat whatever IER he was using in that instance in terms of picking out /observing the target clearly. Regards LPV's, seems if I recall in one of the driveby commentaries in Cooper's Corner that an LPV mounted conventionally on a carbine was a useful arrangement and while it did not offer some of the handiness of an IER, he was mildly positive. Cooper also was complimentary of the old M94 30-30 with peep sights. He has a picture of same in his book "Art of the Rifle".

I'd mentioned prior that my Dad, in about 1970 used what was likely a Buhler mount forward of the receiver and a Leupold 2X pistol scope on a M94 in .44 mag. It gave him fits. Unknow to either of us he was cross dominant, and finding that optic window up front was a challenge. Additionally, he never reall solved an insufficient elevation problem with the mount and after repeated attempts at shimming, went with a side mount, which was still a struggle. He traded the carbine, before I knew about it. Steel butt plate, saddle ring (with a leather thong) ....

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm going to have to read Aagard's books again. He was quite a writer.

 

[bamaranger]

Finn

Only read his articles in the "Rifleman", of which there were quite a few for several years.

 

[JohnKSa]

There are, I think, three books that are really just compilations of his articles.

He did write another book that was almost a sort of autobiography. His wife added to that book after he died and published it under a different title. The result was sort of a biography/autobiography of the two of them. Given his (and his wife's) interest in hunting, and his interest in rifles, there was plenty of hunting/gun content in it.

 

[Unclenick]

The topic is interesting. I took an M1A to the 270 class at Gunsite in 1993, extra weight, 20-round magazines, iron sights and all, but still won the shoot-off at the conclusion of the class. A number of folks who had more money than I did at the time had Scout rifles built for them by The Smithy that they collected when they arrived for the class, and I recall being envious of the greater ease with which they could mount their lighter rifles from the guard position for snap firing. I'd been allowed to try it with one.

Fast forward a decade, and the Steyr Scout came out in its Jeff Cooper version, and remembering liking the handling of the ones at The Ranch, I acquired one. It shoots very well and mounts fast for me. I tend to be a "stock crawler," and the long eye relief helps me prevent inadvertent eyebrow dings.