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Savage 30-06 take off barrel
- Thread starter Yosemite Steve
- Start date
Yosemite Steve
New member
The link on post #3 was to a 30" bull barrel. Mine has alwas been a 22". When I'm at the bar it's a 36'! RC20 said he has a 26". I beleive that was in reference to his 270. When life gets tough sometimes it is best to move on...
Yosemite Steve
New member
I heard the Canadians pretty much cornered the market on take off barrels.
Yosemite Steve
New member
Going back through all of my load history I am finding that this gun likes to shoot a bullet with a short jump through a freshly cleaned barrel. Many of my fouling shots are touching... 165 SST seated .005" off had a 1/2" group. 180 SST seated .005" off had a 3/4" group. 180 seated .010" off had 3 different 1" groups. The only catch with this is that I can't shoot higher velocities without big pressure spikes. I will say that the Speer 2052 (180 SPBT) does not have as big of pressure signs seated close as the SST's. The COL of the Speer bullet to the lands is .040" longer and there isn't much neck holding onto them.
Once the barrel is fouled the load tweaking and seating depth are finicky and hard to duplicate. I think that maybe I should load and sight in for first shot accuracy. What a pain to have to clean it before each shot.... But shooting that deer between the eyes was quite satisfying.
Once the barrel is fouled the load tweaking and seating depth are finicky and hard to duplicate. I think that maybe I should load and sight in for first shot accuracy. What a pain to have to clean it before each shot.... But shooting that deer between the eyes was quite satisfying.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Actually, I need to try some fresh brass. All of my brass has been found to have crooked case heads from my Savage not having a square receiver face. It is true now but the brass is not. I think it's a big reason for inaccuracy.
It will only be an issue the first time you shoot it. That will square the heads back up again, and the next reload won't see the recoil moment shift around and increase dispersion due to which side of the bolt meets the brass first. If you want better shooting from the first reloading, find which side of the head stick back the most and put that side on the same side of the chamber for each shot. It will reduce the effect.
JeepHammer
Moderator
The guys hit on a lot of good points...
For me, 'Unfired' would be a good sign.
Unfired usually means a caliber change and not a bad barrel.
Even if the previous shooter didn't like the barrel, I ask what they were shooting.
Some barrels inherently don't like super light or heavy bullets, and some guys are just married to a certain weight or brand of bullet.
All Savage barrels I've ever owned shot reasonably to very well, I have no complaints.
Keep in mind that all production line barrels are made the same way, a broaching tool (cutting tool) is dragged through the bore to create rifling, and it's a crude cut at best.
I've never seen a common factory barrel that wouldn't benefit from hand lapping (forget fire lapping unless it's the last resort to save the barrel).
This is as simple as using an old brush, rod, some molten lead & some lapping compound, don't forget elbow grease!
There are 'High Tech' lapping heads, but they actually don't work any better than lead/brush method, you just don't have to melt lead.
The ONLY tool I recommend buying (and most serious shooters already have one) is a one piece rod with a ball bearing roller handle.
This allows the slug to twist with the rifling.
Otherwise, you will have to rotate the rod manually while pulling or the slug will unscrew on one stroke or the other.
Use a rod that is NOT capable of gouging the muzzle crown! This means the sectional rods are out the window, even the aluminum ones.
Polished stainless or coated rods work best...
Plug barrel with a patch, seat the old brush/rod on the patch, pour a small amount of lead on the brush.
Pull the rod/slug out and add lapping compound to the rifling grooves and reinsert.
Stick a fired brass in the chamber to protect chamber from overrun,
Work in long strokes, muzzle to chamber.
The finer the compound, the longer it takes, but the better the job will turn out.
It's amazing what an hour of lapping will do for the barrel in removing scratches, tool gouges & chatter marks!
I use an 'Exacto' knife to relieve grooves in the lead slug to protect the bore diameter, so the slug only works the rifling grooves.
This is VERY simple, easy to do & hard to screw up.
I'm fond of only leaving a few brass/bronze wires on the brush to center it in the bore, so the lead can grip the twisted wire at the core and allows lead to flow better around the brush.
An undersized patch end for your rod works also, but it's sacrificed and not junk like a worn out brush is.
If the slug quits cutting, no big deal.
Simply melt the lead off and repour with fresh lead or use another used brush, and if you choose, relieve the slug grooves again to maintain the bore diameter.
With a couple hours of lapping, and a few changes in slugs, you can get a near mirror finish.
Sure beats paying a barrel to extrusion lap a barrel that takes metal off everything, or coughing up to $350 for hand lapping!
That extrusion or fire lapping is just evil in regards to rifling edges and increasing center bore diameter since it cuts EVERYTHING...
You mostly want to polish the rifling grooves that are gouged up the most while leaving bore diameter and bore edges alone. A relieved slug does that, and if you find a choke or tight spot, you can work it exclusively instead of grinding the crap out of everything!
For me, 'Unfired' would be a good sign.
Unfired usually means a caliber change and not a bad barrel.
Even if the previous shooter didn't like the barrel, I ask what they were shooting.
Some barrels inherently don't like super light or heavy bullets, and some guys are just married to a certain weight or brand of bullet.
All Savage barrels I've ever owned shot reasonably to very well, I have no complaints.
Keep in mind that all production line barrels are made the same way, a broaching tool (cutting tool) is dragged through the bore to create rifling, and it's a crude cut at best.
I've never seen a common factory barrel that wouldn't benefit from hand lapping (forget fire lapping unless it's the last resort to save the barrel).
This is as simple as using an old brush, rod, some molten lead & some lapping compound, don't forget elbow grease!
There are 'High Tech' lapping heads, but they actually don't work any better than lead/brush method, you just don't have to melt lead.
The ONLY tool I recommend buying (and most serious shooters already have one) is a one piece rod with a ball bearing roller handle.
This allows the slug to twist with the rifling.
Otherwise, you will have to rotate the rod manually while pulling or the slug will unscrew on one stroke or the other.
Use a rod that is NOT capable of gouging the muzzle crown! This means the sectional rods are out the window, even the aluminum ones.
Polished stainless or coated rods work best...
Plug barrel with a patch, seat the old brush/rod on the patch, pour a small amount of lead on the brush.
Pull the rod/slug out and add lapping compound to the rifling grooves and reinsert.
Stick a fired brass in the chamber to protect chamber from overrun,
Work in long strokes, muzzle to chamber.
The finer the compound, the longer it takes, but the better the job will turn out.
It's amazing what an hour of lapping will do for the barrel in removing scratches, tool gouges & chatter marks!
I use an 'Exacto' knife to relieve grooves in the lead slug to protect the bore diameter, so the slug only works the rifling grooves.
This is VERY simple, easy to do & hard to screw up.
I'm fond of only leaving a few brass/bronze wires on the brush to center it in the bore, so the lead can grip the twisted wire at the core and allows lead to flow better around the brush.
An undersized patch end for your rod works also, but it's sacrificed and not junk like a worn out brush is.
If the slug quits cutting, no big deal.
Simply melt the lead off and repour with fresh lead or use another used brush, and if you choose, relieve the slug grooves again to maintain the bore diameter.
With a couple hours of lapping, and a few changes in slugs, you can get a near mirror finish.
Sure beats paying a barrel to extrusion lap a barrel that takes metal off everything, or coughing up to $350 for hand lapping!
That extrusion or fire lapping is just evil in regards to rifling edges and increasing center bore diameter since it cuts EVERYTHING...
You mostly want to polish the rifling grooves that are gouged up the most while leaving bore diameter and bore edges alone. A relieved slug does that, and if you find a choke or tight spot, you can work it exclusively instead of grinding the crap out of everything!
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Thanks, JeepHammer. I may have to try that. My cleaned rifling looks awful when magnified. Or I may have to try it on the fresh takeoff barrel. We shall see. I'm curious to see how well it shoots with the bolt face being square to the bore for the first time.
JeepHammer
Moderator
I don't have an 'Opinion'...
I have a bore scope & firing fixture.
Nothing like being able to absolutely PROVE your work produced results at the target.
Every barrel maker will 'Lap' the barrel for an extra charge.
If the rifling wasn't so crude in the first place, it probably wouldn't need lapping, but that's neither here nor there.
When the manufacturer advertises every barrel is lapped, that's usually an abrasive emulsion forced through the barrel instead of a proper lapping.
It takes EVERYTHING down, low spots that shouldn't be touched right along with everything else, and it's MURDER on the sharp edges of the rifling.
Machine lapping won't work a 'Choke' (restriction) down without working everything else that probably doesn't need aggressive work.
Your hand pressure will find those tight spots, and you can work them precisely by hand.
This is just a quick of the single pass broach cutting off the rifling...
As the broach is on a rod and pulled through the bore,
The broach is angled to cut the spirals.
When starting out, the broach is very 'Wobbly', it's trying to find it's equilibrium between the forces being applied to it.
This makes for a crooked track of the rifling cut, deeper & shallow cutting, gouging, etc. until the forces find equilibrium, then the cut smooth out quite a bit.
Better barrel makers cut this part off the blank, others cut the chamber in the worst of it, the 'China' made barrels might have this defect right at the muzzle since they don't care which end of the blank they chamber... (What do you expect from a barrel costing $12-$25 wholesale?)
The broach WILL chatter all the way down the bore, no matter how much lubricant used or how even the pulling force is applied, simply because it's trying to take a crap load of material off.
The broach tool WILL move from 'Side To Side' (round hole, so off center) creating high & low spots in the rifling.
Honing/lapping helps smooth out these issues. Since the slug is a constant size, it won't take as much off 'Low' spots as it does 'High' spots, and it will smooth over sharp edges & 'lips'.
Sharp edge lips (cutting edges) are a HUGE deal!
These shave off copper, copper liquified at these pressures, and a sharp edge will hydraulic out a crater in the barrel material.
Each round down range makes the pit/crater larger because more liquid/plastic copper is forced into that hole...
There is a reason people with a good bore scope recommend a PROPER & extensive barrel break in!
Keeping the copper cleaned out of that hole until firing blunts/dulls/rounds over that sharp edge keeps the pits/craters small enough they don't effect the strength of the barrel, and the barrel won't hide a clump of copper that can drop into the bore at any time.
Lapping is a Rapid Break In that rewards you every time you clean the bore!
The time I save cleaning copper alone is worth the two hours when I get a new barrel.
Keep in mind, before you lap a barrel, makes SURE all copper & lead is out of the bore!
Copper will keep your lapping from cutting in the correct shape or correct place.
It's common sense, but I've seen that cleaning skipped and the results weren't as impressive.
I have a bore scope & firing fixture.
Nothing like being able to absolutely PROVE your work produced results at the target.
Every barrel maker will 'Lap' the barrel for an extra charge.
If the rifling wasn't so crude in the first place, it probably wouldn't need lapping, but that's neither here nor there.
When the manufacturer advertises every barrel is lapped, that's usually an abrasive emulsion forced through the barrel instead of a proper lapping.
It takes EVERYTHING down, low spots that shouldn't be touched right along with everything else, and it's MURDER on the sharp edges of the rifling.
Machine lapping won't work a 'Choke' (restriction) down without working everything else that probably doesn't need aggressive work.
Your hand pressure will find those tight spots, and you can work them precisely by hand.
This is just a quick of the single pass broach cutting off the rifling...
As the broach is on a rod and pulled through the bore,
The broach is angled to cut the spirals.
When starting out, the broach is very 'Wobbly', it's trying to find it's equilibrium between the forces being applied to it.
This makes for a crooked track of the rifling cut, deeper & shallow cutting, gouging, etc. until the forces find equilibrium, then the cut smooth out quite a bit.
Better barrel makers cut this part off the blank, others cut the chamber in the worst of it, the 'China' made barrels might have this defect right at the muzzle since they don't care which end of the blank they chamber... (What do you expect from a barrel costing $12-$25 wholesale?)
The broach WILL chatter all the way down the bore, no matter how much lubricant used or how even the pulling force is applied, simply because it's trying to take a crap load of material off.
The broach tool WILL move from 'Side To Side' (round hole, so off center) creating high & low spots in the rifling.
Honing/lapping helps smooth out these issues. Since the slug is a constant size, it won't take as much off 'Low' spots as it does 'High' spots, and it will smooth over sharp edges & 'lips'.
Sharp edge lips (cutting edges) are a HUGE deal!
These shave off copper, copper liquified at these pressures, and a sharp edge will hydraulic out a crater in the barrel material.
Each round down range makes the pit/crater larger because more liquid/plastic copper is forced into that hole...
There is a reason people with a good bore scope recommend a PROPER & extensive barrel break in!
Keeping the copper cleaned out of that hole until firing blunts/dulls/rounds over that sharp edge keeps the pits/craters small enough they don't effect the strength of the barrel, and the barrel won't hide a clump of copper that can drop into the bore at any time.
Lapping is a Rapid Break In that rewards you every time you clean the bore!
The time I save cleaning copper alone is worth the two hours when I get a new barrel.
Keep in mind, before you lap a barrel, makes SURE all copper & lead is out of the bore!
Copper will keep your lapping from cutting in the correct shape or correct place.
It's common sense, but I've seen that cleaning skipped and the results weren't as impressive.
Yosemite Steve
New member
JeepHammer, some of the process you described is hard for me to put together. How to make the lead plug on a brush and get it to lap only the rifling isn't intuitive via your description. I am very interested in trying this but I could sure use a detailed tutorial. Do you have any suggestions?
JeepHammer
Moderator
It's not hard once you realize the slug is a NEGATIVE of the barrel.
What's a groove on the slug is the bore 'Land'.
You simply deepen the groove with an 'Exacto' knife and it doesn't impact your lands as much as the grooves of your barrel.
Also, keep in mind we aren't actually requiring the lead to try and cut the steel of the barrel.
The ABRASIVE is dragged in and out over the steel, wearing it away.
The 'Lands' of the SLUG will be in closer proximity to the GROOVES of the barrel, so the abrasive will cut more,
While the Grooves of the SLUG, deepened with trimming, won't be in as close of proximity, leaving room for abrasive to NOT cut as deeply or efficiently on the BORE lands.
Keep in mind the bore is the SMALLEST diameter, between LANDS in the barrel.
This hole is drilled, then reamed to size BEFORE the rifling is gouged into the barrel.
That drilled and sometimes reamed hole is MUCH smoother than the gouges left behind by the broaching tool that cut the rifling.
Smoother, and usually much more consistent in size, these lands don't need to be lapped as much,
These lands are what press, and sometimes cut the grooves into fired bullets, the bullet being a NEGATIVE of the barrel bore/rifling.
So, now to the type of bullet you are shooting...
Small bore, deep rifling, sharp edges get a serious grip on the bullet.
Thin jackets CAN be cut all the way through, and strip off the bullet in air resistance causing problems,
While thick jackets, hard lead will benefit from sharper edges and deeper rifling grooves.
Most time I try to do as little to the BORE (top of the lands) as is needed.
Once the bore wears out, the barrel is shot, nothing more you can do with it.
Deepening the rifling GROOVES slightly by lapping (polishing) isn't an issue,
There is a benefit to reducing friction, there is a benefit to uniform depth of rifling, there is a benefit to uniform width of rifling,
Lapping helps with all these things since the rifling was a rough gouge, not a clean machined surface.
Like I said, I don't have an opinion, I have a bore scope.
When you actually SEE how rough that rifling cut is, how uneven in depth & width it is, where the chips breaking off left sharp edges all over the place, burrs hanging off everywhere, you start to understand.
It's simply doing to the inside of the barrel (the business surfaces) as people do to the outside for looks only...
What's a groove on the slug is the bore 'Land'.
You simply deepen the groove with an 'Exacto' knife and it doesn't impact your lands as much as the grooves of your barrel.
Also, keep in mind we aren't actually requiring the lead to try and cut the steel of the barrel.
The ABRASIVE is dragged in and out over the steel, wearing it away.
The 'Lands' of the SLUG will be in closer proximity to the GROOVES of the barrel, so the abrasive will cut more,
While the Grooves of the SLUG, deepened with trimming, won't be in as close of proximity, leaving room for abrasive to NOT cut as deeply or efficiently on the BORE lands.
Keep in mind the bore is the SMALLEST diameter, between LANDS in the barrel.
This hole is drilled, then reamed to size BEFORE the rifling is gouged into the barrel.
That drilled and sometimes reamed hole is MUCH smoother than the gouges left behind by the broaching tool that cut the rifling.
Smoother, and usually much more consistent in size, these lands don't need to be lapped as much,
These lands are what press, and sometimes cut the grooves into fired bullets, the bullet being a NEGATIVE of the barrel bore/rifling.
So, now to the type of bullet you are shooting...
Small bore, deep rifling, sharp edges get a serious grip on the bullet.
Thin jackets CAN be cut all the way through, and strip off the bullet in air resistance causing problems,
While thick jackets, hard lead will benefit from sharper edges and deeper rifling grooves.
Most time I try to do as little to the BORE (top of the lands) as is needed.
Once the bore wears out, the barrel is shot, nothing more you can do with it.
Deepening the rifling GROOVES slightly by lapping (polishing) isn't an issue,
There is a benefit to reducing friction, there is a benefit to uniform depth of rifling, there is a benefit to uniform width of rifling,
Lapping helps with all these things since the rifling was a rough gouge, not a clean machined surface.
Like I said, I don't have an opinion, I have a bore scope.
When you actually SEE how rough that rifling cut is, how uneven in depth & width it is, where the chips breaking off left sharp edges all over the place, burrs hanging off everywhere, you start to understand.
It's simply doing to the inside of the barrel (the business surfaces) as people do to the outside for looks only...
Yosemite Steve
New member
So the lapping compound is just put into the bore? What if we put it into the lead?
JeepHammer
Moderator
The Parker-Hale type cleaning jag, being undersized for the bore & having a bunch of grooves holds the lead the best.
When I find a restriction deep in the barrel that needs to be worked out towards the muzzle, I use a Parker-Hale jag to pour lead around.
You aren't going to pull the lead off a Parker-Hale like you might off scant brush wires,allowing you to work the restriction harder.
Common lapping, just to polish, the worn out bronze brush works OK, and we all have worn out brushes laying around in the way.
When you are done lapping you just toss the brush, but I usually try to recover the Parker-Hale jag with varying results. Melting the lead off works, but it takes a cold to molten melt since you can't drop a cold/moist lead coated jag into a hot lead pot unless you want 3rd degree burns and a lesson in water to steam expansion you will only do ONCE...
Cleaning lead off the ceiling isn't my favorite thing to do.
So I try to cut/chisel lead off the jag. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes I waste the jag...
If I were smarter, I'd just throw the jag in the lead scrap bucket for the next melt, but we all have our quirks and things we can't let go.
Now, as an example, I bought a Mauser 98 action in a poorly done Sporter stock with a .30-06 barrel when I was about 15 years old. Cost me $75 and was my first high power rifle.
Didn't shoot worth $15, which is probably why the guy sold it for $75...
A local retired gunsmith I sometimes worked for agreed to guide me as long as I did the work.
He found a 'Choke' about 5" from the chamber that was undersizing the bullets, meaning they rattled loose from that point to the muzzle.
I hand lapped that restriction out of that barrel, took me a week of free time (farm kid, not a lot of free time) and I probably went way too slow trying NOT to ruin the barrel.
Trigger job, properly drilled for optics mounts, mounts & rings properly installed, receiver squared, threads straightened, bolt face lapped square, barrel squared off & chamber set back, chamber recut & stock pillared & bedded,
(I had to wait for bedding resin to wear off my hands & grow out of my hair! I spent a week removing resin from the stock where I didn't intend it to be, just a total mess!)
I killed a white tail at 603 yds (according to my dad) the next fall.
You can't put metal back, so nothing I could do about the loose bolt, but the rifle shot on par with my grandpa's Rem 700 that was professionally set up.
That was the longest shot I ever made before joining the Marines at 17.
I'm not as impressed with the shot now as I was then, but I'm MUCH more impressed with the work done & the lessons learned than I was then...
I had no idea I would still be fixing other people's screwups 40 years later!
When I tell people how to do this stuff, they scoff.
People were shooting 1,000 yds long before any modern machine tools, tooling, CNC equipment, etc.
And the old ways may be modernized, but still basically the same functions/processes, and they still work...
When I find a restriction deep in the barrel that needs to be worked out towards the muzzle, I use a Parker-Hale jag to pour lead around.
You aren't going to pull the lead off a Parker-Hale like you might off scant brush wires,allowing you to work the restriction harder.
Common lapping, just to polish, the worn out bronze brush works OK, and we all have worn out brushes laying around in the way.
When you are done lapping you just toss the brush, but I usually try to recover the Parker-Hale jag with varying results. Melting the lead off works, but it takes a cold to molten melt since you can't drop a cold/moist lead coated jag into a hot lead pot unless you want 3rd degree burns and a lesson in water to steam expansion you will only do ONCE...
Cleaning lead off the ceiling isn't my favorite thing to do.
So I try to cut/chisel lead off the jag. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes I waste the jag...
If I were smarter, I'd just throw the jag in the lead scrap bucket for the next melt, but we all have our quirks and things we can't let go.
Now, as an example, I bought a Mauser 98 action in a poorly done Sporter stock with a .30-06 barrel when I was about 15 years old. Cost me $75 and was my first high power rifle.
Didn't shoot worth $15, which is probably why the guy sold it for $75...
A local retired gunsmith I sometimes worked for agreed to guide me as long as I did the work.
He found a 'Choke' about 5" from the chamber that was undersizing the bullets, meaning they rattled loose from that point to the muzzle.
I hand lapped that restriction out of that barrel, took me a week of free time (farm kid, not a lot of free time) and I probably went way too slow trying NOT to ruin the barrel.
Trigger job, properly drilled for optics mounts, mounts & rings properly installed, receiver squared, threads straightened, bolt face lapped square, barrel squared off & chamber set back, chamber recut & stock pillared & bedded,
(I had to wait for bedding resin to wear off my hands & grow out of my hair! I spent a week removing resin from the stock where I didn't intend it to be, just a total mess!)
I killed a white tail at 603 yds (according to my dad) the next fall.
You can't put metal back, so nothing I could do about the loose bolt, but the rifle shot on par with my grandpa's Rem 700 that was professionally set up.
That was the longest shot I ever made before joining the Marines at 17.
I'm not as impressed with the shot now as I was then, but I'm MUCH more impressed with the work done & the lessons learned than I was then...
I had no idea I would still be fixing other people's screwups 40 years later!
When I tell people how to do this stuff, they scoff.
People were shooting 1,000 yds long before any modern machine tools, tooling, CNC equipment, etc.
And the old ways may be modernized, but still basically the same functions/processes, and they still work...
Yosemite Steve
New member
Thank you for sharing all of this!
JeepHammer
Moderator
Wheeler sold a bore lapping compound kit, something like 220, 340 & 600 grit jars for about $30 the last time I noticed them.
Brownells has a really nice set of jars, about 8 different grits that will cover 100% of machining/lapping you will do on firearms. (Good for making water pumps, etc flat so they will hold a gasket too!)
Machine tooling supply places will have bigger cans/jars, but you might need 3 grams, not a quart!
So the little jars go a long way when lapping optic rings, facing off receivers, anywhere you want to use friction machining instead of a cutting tool.
Once you learn to lap, you won't believe how handy a skill it is!
Keep in mind, if you want to make something flat, a piece of plate glass is dead flat and makes a good lapping surface.
Plate glass is floated on liquid tin, so gravity makes it dead flat.
Lay short carpet on a work bench, lay plate glass on the carpet, and lap away. Restores flat surfaces to what's supposed to be flat parts. I restore very old vehicles with a lot of fragile cast parts, lapping allows for safe restoration. Works the same for flat gun parts.
Brownells has a really nice set of jars, about 8 different grits that will cover 100% of machining/lapping you will do on firearms. (Good for making water pumps, etc flat so they will hold a gasket too!)
Machine tooling supply places will have bigger cans/jars, but you might need 3 grams, not a quart!
So the little jars go a long way when lapping optic rings, facing off receivers, anywhere you want to use friction machining instead of a cutting tool.
Once you learn to lap, you won't believe how handy a skill it is!
Keep in mind, if you want to make something flat, a piece of plate glass is dead flat and makes a good lapping surface.
Plate glass is floated on liquid tin, so gravity makes it dead flat.
Lay short carpet on a work bench, lay plate glass on the carpet, and lap away. Restores flat surfaces to what's supposed to be flat parts. I restore very old vehicles with a lot of fragile cast parts, lapping allows for safe restoration. Works the same for flat gun parts.
JeepHammer
Moderator
No problem. Glad to do it.
You either spend a few bucks and learn to do any/every rifle you come across,
Or you pay someone else that spent $40-$50 on basic tools $150-$350 for lapping ONE BARREL.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing! Costs nothing to share and if people are willing, saves them a TON of money!
You either spend a few bucks and learn to do any/every rifle you come across,
Or you pay someone else that spent $40-$50 on basic tools $150-$350 for lapping ONE BARREL.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing! Costs nothing to share and if people are willing, saves them a TON of money!
Yosemite Steve
New member
I have silicon carbide rock tumbling powder in 600, 400, 120/220 and 60/90 grits. I lapped my lugs by making a paste with the 400 grit and some gun oil. Do you think that would work for this?
JeepHammer
Moderator
Abrasive is abrasive, I think it would work.
When I used dry powder I mixed it with petroleum jelly.
I think silicone is the base on the commercial stuff, it's sold as food grade lubricant since silicone is non-toxic, so it's easily available.
Yup, I just looked at the can and it's silicone binder.
A jar of vasoline stinks, and it dries out over time, but it's not like you are leaving it on after you are done and it's cheap, available everywhere.
I stay away from aluminum oxide abrasive.
Aluminum oxide is REALLY sharp, and for a polish abrasive it's HARD, has a tendency to imbed in the steel (and anything else you use it on).
I actually perfer silicone carbide, cuts VERY cleanly & evenly, so I would think you are good to go!
This is a machinist thing, it's super difficult to get a polish when the abrasive gouges & imbeds in the work piece.
It's cheap, but there are other abrasives that work better that aren't too much more expensive.
There is a reason Emery cloth is still made, it just works better for polishing & finishing than aluminum oxide.
I usually start out with a finer abrasive, if you find a spot that needs serious cutting, you can switch to a heavy cutter without remaking the slug.
You can go up in size, but not down. New, fresh slug for finer abrasive every time.
With modern barrels, you can start with about 320 to check for tight spots, and if you don't find one, 320 leaves a pretty good finish for break in.
Find a tight spot, you might want to work that spot with something heavier, but many times 320 will do it all.
You can go completely OCD, use 600 and get a super fine finish, but I can't see much of a point.
The idea is to leave a finish that is as true & fine enough the bullets finish it without issues.
Serious gouges are hard on bullets and continue to damage the barrel until you fire enough soft copper to round them over.
Round them over, or lap them out entirely in the beginning, and you bullets don't get damaged.
Nothing like raking a bullet over a file under extreme pressure and wondering why the bullets stray off all over the place, or undersizing a bullet in a tight spot and having it rattle loose down the barrel to the muzzle and wondering why they stray off...
This is personal preference...
I usually lap from the chamber. It's more difficult to do and you want to drill out a fired brass head so the rod/slug will fit through it. This protects the chamber.
By working from the chamber the barrel tightens as the bullet moves from chamber to muzzle.
If the barrel is in a receiver, this can be difficult for guys that can't remove the barrel correctly.
If you hit a really tight spot, working from the muzzle might be required, but be sure to protect the crown!
Re-crown isn't expensive or difficult, but it removes finish, and adds work/tools needed.
Lapping won't screw up the 'Throat' of the chamber if you keep the rod reasonably stright.
I use a rag on the rod, holding it in place with the 'Guide' hand, and I rotate the rag so it keeps wiping.
You get some play from the chamber, but from the muzzle you MUST keep the abrasive off the rod/crown contact.
Small bores are a pain in the butt, but .30 cal allows you some space for a rag or tape inside the crown for extra protection.
I find it easier to work from the chamber and NOT completely exit the muzzle.
Here is another tip, slip a pill bottle over the muzzle and tape it into place.
This will allow you a stop for the rod.
Duct tape on the rod for a depth indicator keeps you from overrunning your stroke.
When I find a tight spot, I tape the rod so while I'm working the tight spot I don't overrun it.
This is all common sense stuff, you will figure it out pretty quickly!
It can save a 'Bad' barrel, it can make most barrels easier to clean, it *Might* make a good barrel even better, but there is no guarantee, but I've never seen moderate lapping make a barrel worse.
Better barrel makers lap as a service to the customer, and if it didn't have benefit they wouldn't do that.
Since you are working with an abrasive so fine you need a micrometer or microscope to measure it, and the slug is a fixed size, you certainly aren't going to remove enough material to damage the barrel unless you go WAY overboard...
Try it, see what you think!
When I used dry powder I mixed it with petroleum jelly.
I think silicone is the base on the commercial stuff, it's sold as food grade lubricant since silicone is non-toxic, so it's easily available.
Yup, I just looked at the can and it's silicone binder.
A jar of vasoline stinks, and it dries out over time, but it's not like you are leaving it on after you are done and it's cheap, available everywhere.
I stay away from aluminum oxide abrasive.
Aluminum oxide is REALLY sharp, and for a polish abrasive it's HARD, has a tendency to imbed in the steel (and anything else you use it on).
I actually perfer silicone carbide, cuts VERY cleanly & evenly, so I would think you are good to go!
This is a machinist thing, it's super difficult to get a polish when the abrasive gouges & imbeds in the work piece.
It's cheap, but there are other abrasives that work better that aren't too much more expensive.
There is a reason Emery cloth is still made, it just works better for polishing & finishing than aluminum oxide.
I usually start out with a finer abrasive, if you find a spot that needs serious cutting, you can switch to a heavy cutter without remaking the slug.
You can go up in size, but not down. New, fresh slug for finer abrasive every time.
With modern barrels, you can start with about 320 to check for tight spots, and if you don't find one, 320 leaves a pretty good finish for break in.
Find a tight spot, you might want to work that spot with something heavier, but many times 320 will do it all.
You can go completely OCD, use 600 and get a super fine finish, but I can't see much of a point.
The idea is to leave a finish that is as true & fine enough the bullets finish it without issues.
Serious gouges are hard on bullets and continue to damage the barrel until you fire enough soft copper to round them over.
Round them over, or lap them out entirely in the beginning, and you bullets don't get damaged.
Nothing like raking a bullet over a file under extreme pressure and wondering why the bullets stray off all over the place, or undersizing a bullet in a tight spot and having it rattle loose down the barrel to the muzzle and wondering why they stray off...
This is personal preference...
I usually lap from the chamber. It's more difficult to do and you want to drill out a fired brass head so the rod/slug will fit through it. This protects the chamber.
By working from the chamber the barrel tightens as the bullet moves from chamber to muzzle.
If the barrel is in a receiver, this can be difficult for guys that can't remove the barrel correctly.
If you hit a really tight spot, working from the muzzle might be required, but be sure to protect the crown!
Re-crown isn't expensive or difficult, but it removes finish, and adds work/tools needed.
Lapping won't screw up the 'Throat' of the chamber if you keep the rod reasonably stright.
I use a rag on the rod, holding it in place with the 'Guide' hand, and I rotate the rag so it keeps wiping.
You get some play from the chamber, but from the muzzle you MUST keep the abrasive off the rod/crown contact.
Small bores are a pain in the butt, but .30 cal allows you some space for a rag or tape inside the crown for extra protection.
I find it easier to work from the chamber and NOT completely exit the muzzle.
Here is another tip, slip a pill bottle over the muzzle and tape it into place.
This will allow you a stop for the rod.
Duct tape on the rod for a depth indicator keeps you from overrunning your stroke.
When I find a tight spot, I tape the rod so while I'm working the tight spot I don't overrun it.
This is all common sense stuff, you will figure it out pretty quickly!
It can save a 'Bad' barrel, it can make most barrels easier to clean, it *Might* make a good barrel even better, but there is no guarantee, but I've never seen moderate lapping make a barrel worse.
Better barrel makers lap as a service to the customer, and if it didn't have benefit they wouldn't do that.
Since you are working with an abrasive so fine you need a micrometer or microscope to measure it, and the slug is a fixed size, you certainly aren't going to remove enough material to damage the barrel unless you go WAY overboard...
Try it, see what you think!
Last edited:
JeepHammer
Moderator
Just as a side story,
The old (and I mean Moses old) gunsmith that got me started lived alone way back in the woods, so I checked on him from time to time.
I showed up, he was in the shop, which stank to high heaven! Made your eyes water! Stink you could taste!
He was polishing a receiver he had made, ran out of vasoline and used Vicks salve on a buffing pad!
I left laughing with clear sinuses!
This is the same guy that charcoal/bone case hardened/finished receivers in an old BBQ grill, and they were BEAUTIFUL! But he did it in the house garage in the winter, smoked everything up something terrible, but had GREAT results.
If you aren't making a mess, you aren't getting anything done!
The old (and I mean Moses old) gunsmith that got me started lived alone way back in the woods, so I checked on him from time to time.
I showed up, he was in the shop, which stank to high heaven! Made your eyes water! Stink you could taste!
He was polishing a receiver he had made, ran out of vasoline and used Vicks salve on a buffing pad!
I left laughing with clear sinuses!
This is the same guy that charcoal/bone case hardened/finished receivers in an old BBQ grill, and they were BEAUTIFUL! But he did it in the house garage in the winter, smoked everything up something terrible, but had GREAT results.
If you aren't making a mess, you aren't getting anything done!