Saudi Broadcasts Promote Anti-Semitism, Martyrdom
- Thread starter Jeff Thomas
- Start date
I'm pretty much abandoning this forum as its adolescent and naive misunderstanding of Middle Eastern problems is pathetic.
The noble or ignoble moderators really need to study the history of the area and Arab/Islamic attitudes to the West and the Jews. It is not just a few nuts. But it's your forum, so continue in your misguided ways.
However, Tamara said:
Find the killers. Kill them. Find those who harbor or support the killers. Kill them, too. If a nation state is supporting them, invade it, depose its' leader, destroy its' military. Unleash the dogs of war. But my nation is not the one that conducts the Rape of Nanking, the Katyin Forest or Malmedy Massacres. My nation fights against those people. Civilians are sometimes killed during our military operations, yes, but never as the intended targets! That's what makes this country different from the sandbox despots we fight, and their nations.
-----------
Tamara, you have little knowledge of the deliberate strategies used by us in WWII. Fire bombs were developed that were specifically designed to set fire to Japanese residential areas and create firestorms. The targeting of the urban areas of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not based on war production, solely.
Our actions earlier against the Native Americans were aimed at population destruction in many cases.
We have fought basically for geopolitical reasons, not ideology. FDR and the US government suppressed info about the Holocaust as they feared the country would balk at WWII if it was seen to be to save Jews. Requests to bomb the camps were refused.
So basically, you are posting emotional drivel without real knowledge of the world. I find many of the moderators others posts to be ignorant of Islamic views in most of the Middle East.
It is not a group of nuts - it is systemic and supported by governments such as the Saudis, Iran, Iraq and Syria.
Personally, if I was an Israeli and I read the drivel from this list - I would have a rather low opinion of the group.
Don't look for me anymore. I'm gone.
The noble or ignoble moderators really need to study the history of the area and Arab/Islamic attitudes to the West and the Jews. It is not just a few nuts. But it's your forum, so continue in your misguided ways.
However, Tamara said:
Find the killers. Kill them. Find those who harbor or support the killers. Kill them, too. If a nation state is supporting them, invade it, depose its' leader, destroy its' military. Unleash the dogs of war. But my nation is not the one that conducts the Rape of Nanking, the Katyin Forest or Malmedy Massacres. My nation fights against those people. Civilians are sometimes killed during our military operations, yes, but never as the intended targets! That's what makes this country different from the sandbox despots we fight, and their nations.
-----------
Tamara, you have little knowledge of the deliberate strategies used by us in WWII. Fire bombs were developed that were specifically designed to set fire to Japanese residential areas and create firestorms. The targeting of the urban areas of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not based on war production, solely.
Our actions earlier against the Native Americans were aimed at population destruction in many cases.
We have fought basically for geopolitical reasons, not ideology. FDR and the US government suppressed info about the Holocaust as they feared the country would balk at WWII if it was seen to be to save Jews. Requests to bomb the camps were refused.
So basically, you are posting emotional drivel without real knowledge of the world. I find many of the moderators others posts to be ignorant of Islamic views in most of the Middle East.
It is not a group of nuts - it is systemic and supported by governments such as the Saudis, Iran, Iraq and Syria.
Personally, if I was an Israeli and I read the drivel from this list - I would have a rather low opinion of the group.
Don't look for me anymore. I'm gone.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Dave-
And your assumption is?
And your point is?
I'm not the one egging others on to engage in the moral equivalent of Christian Jihad, from the safety of a Stateside computer terminal. Nor do I believe that most Israelis have ever called for the type of non-directed action that's been called for in this thread.
The Israelis understand War and BloodFeud....we watch it on TV. I'd be remiss in counseling them how they should fight it; just as you're remiss in your (apparent?) position that America turn a blind eye to civilians, innocents and non-combatants. I assume you'll be assisting young American Soldiers in that quest from....where? Your desk?
All I'm suggesting is that, if you feel that strongly about it; if you believe the battle lines are that easily drawn; pitch in and help. Do your part. Whack a [fill in the blank with your latest Bogey-Man] for Christ today. Get 'em while they're young, if possible; before they're able to spawn. Teach your kids to recognize the "signs" of America's enemies....you evidently have a paradigm for identification; heck, if you can get your kids to off a few of the buggers while still in their teens, they won't even have to go to prison.
Sounds like a plan, guy.
Rich
And your assumption is?
And your point is?
I'm not the one egging others on to engage in the moral equivalent of Christian Jihad, from the safety of a Stateside computer terminal. Nor do I believe that most Israelis have ever called for the type of non-directed action that's been called for in this thread.
The Israelis understand War and BloodFeud....we watch it on TV. I'd be remiss in counseling them how they should fight it; just as you're remiss in your (apparent?) position that America turn a blind eye to civilians, innocents and non-combatants. I assume you'll be assisting young American Soldiers in that quest from....where? Your desk?
All I'm suggesting is that, if you feel that strongly about it; if you believe the battle lines are that easily drawn; pitch in and help. Do your part. Whack a [fill in the blank with your latest Bogey-Man] for Christ today. Get 'em while they're young, if possible; before they're able to spawn. Teach your kids to recognize the "signs" of America's enemies....you evidently have a paradigm for identification; heck, if you can get your kids to off a few of the buggers while still in their teens, they won't even have to go to prison.
Sounds like a plan, guy.
Rich
Beauty by design
This is beautiful.....allegedly intellegent, competent, mature humans fighting amongst themselves about the very nature and appropriate response to the threats that face us. Our enemies who monitor these threads must be laughing their asses off at the acidic sarcasm and invective we spew at one another when there is even the hint of dissention in our various opinions. We hammer each other over epithets when we as a group use the epithet 'sheeple' to describe ANYONE who thinks, acts or speaks outside the accepted parameters of our little community.
WAKE UP! Ladies and gentlemen...
The wolf is at the door. It comes in many disguises and it won't care a damn what we call it, or what the age, gender, political philosophy, or socio-economic background of it's next meal is.
We need to concentrate all of our efforts in a united fashion. When we fight amongst ourselves it only gives the enemy a victory.
This is beautiful.....allegedly intellegent, competent, mature humans fighting amongst themselves about the very nature and appropriate response to the threats that face us. Our enemies who monitor these threads must be laughing their asses off at the acidic sarcasm and invective we spew at one another when there is even the hint of dissention in our various opinions. We hammer each other over epithets when we as a group use the epithet 'sheeple' to describe ANYONE who thinks, acts or speaks outside the accepted parameters of our little community.
WAKE UP! Ladies and gentlemen...
The wolf is at the door. It comes in many disguises and it won't care a damn what we call it, or what the age, gender, political philosophy, or socio-economic background of it's next meal is.
We need to concentrate all of our efforts in a united fashion. When we fight amongst ourselves it only gives the enemy a victory.
Master Blaster
New member
The broadcast in the begining of the thread was on OFFICIAL Saudi TV. everything in Saudi Arabia is controlled by the government, except maybe the Mosques. That interview and what the little girl learned in school are the official blessed policy of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia who is our friend
Last night I had MSNBC on and Alan Keyes was showing the palestinian version of sesame street with subtitles, the children were singing songs about becoming martyrs, and killing americans and JEWS. The children were being taught this, how will they ever be able to make peace if this is what they are taught??? All of this is the official government policy there.
We need to remove the governments of these countries and stop deluding ourselves that they will ever be our friends. The people and the children only know what they are taught and told by the government. Allah's approval counters their natural feeling that it is wrong to kill others you do not know.
Alot of hatred has been taught by governments and religous leaders through history. Demonizing another group has long been a strategy used by despots to deflect criticism.
When I was in 2nd grade I was told that:
"I Killed Jesus Christ" by two of my classmates, because I am a Jew"
They were taught this by the Catholic church.
I later became friends with them when they relized I was not a bad person, but I had to overcome what they were taught.
All muslums are not beyond redemption IMHO even if they do not know better.
The real enemy is the despotic leadership of these countries.
Last night I had MSNBC on and Alan Keyes was showing the palestinian version of sesame street with subtitles, the children were singing songs about becoming martyrs, and killing americans and JEWS. The children were being taught this, how will they ever be able to make peace if this is what they are taught??? All of this is the official government policy there.
We need to remove the governments of these countries and stop deluding ourselves that they will ever be our friends. The people and the children only know what they are taught and told by the government. Allah's approval counters their natural feeling that it is wrong to kill others you do not know.
Alot of hatred has been taught by governments and religous leaders through history. Demonizing another group has long been a strategy used by despots to deflect criticism.
When I was in 2nd grade I was told that:
"I Killed Jesus Christ" by two of my classmates, because I am a Jew"
They were taught this by the Catholic church.
I later became friends with them when they relized I was not a bad person, but I had to overcome what they were taught.
All muslums are not beyond redemption IMHO even if they do not know better.
The real enemy is the despotic leadership of these countries.
Looks like the terrorists have won.
One of the primary goals of terrorism is causing dissension amongst the targeted group by inducing overreaction to the threat. This overreaction can come in the form of increased and repressive security measures, and by causing one group to demonize and repress another group, perceived as the villians. This will, in turn, cause other individuals/groups/etc to attack the first group.
This thread is a prime example of the latter method of inducing dissension. Read through it and you'll see what I mean.
Our focus should not be a religion or an ethnicity but the clearly defined threat of terrorists who are targetting our nation and those who openly support them. This includes the Saudi gov't which supports terrorists just as surely as the Iraqi gov't. And yes, it also includes the mother who helps wrap her "little man" in explosives and sends him off to blow up children so he can get to Paradise, and she can get the $25K from Uncle Saddam.
By the way, why the attacks on Christianity here? While this thread began with comments about "Islamists" that could easily have come from an atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Jew, etc. Yet you all have chosen, in your opposition to disparaging remarks about Islam, to insult Christianity, including references to "whack [insert target of the week] for Christ." Why the hypocrisy?
One of the primary goals of terrorism is causing dissension amongst the targeted group by inducing overreaction to the threat. This overreaction can come in the form of increased and repressive security measures, and by causing one group to demonize and repress another group, perceived as the villians. This will, in turn, cause other individuals/groups/etc to attack the first group.
This thread is a prime example of the latter method of inducing dissension. Read through it and you'll see what I mean.
Our focus should not be a religion or an ethnicity but the clearly defined threat of terrorists who are targetting our nation and those who openly support them. This includes the Saudi gov't which supports terrorists just as surely as the Iraqi gov't. And yes, it also includes the mother who helps wrap her "little man" in explosives and sends him off to blow up children so he can get to Paradise, and she can get the $25K from Uncle Saddam.
By the way, why the attacks on Christianity here? While this thread began with comments about "Islamists" that could easily have come from an atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Jew, etc. Yet you all have chosen, in your opposition to disparaging remarks about Islam, to insult Christianity, including references to "whack [insert target of the week] for Christ." Why the hypocrisy?
Ben Swenson
New member
When has an internet forum with 15,000 members agreed on something? Heck, when have 15,000 people from dozens of countries with an impossibly diverse spectrum of backgrounds even come close to almost thinking about considering to agree on anything with regards to the middle east?
Just because a group has decided to debate a subject doesn't mean that "the terrorists have won".
Quiet to the contrary - the fact that dissention is allowed and not oppressed is a sign that the terrorists have not won.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Buzz-
You reference my words. And I thank you for your outrage, as it underscores my point (and your humanity). 'Twas not hypocrisy at all, but hit-home hyperbole (recheck my last name). And you are, rightfully, insulted. However, yours (ours?) is the God of smite, smote, child sacrifice, incest, Crusades, Witch Hunts, Inquisitions and worse, no? The real answer is "Not really, except to the uninitiated". And so, you are rightfully insulted by the ignorance of the statement; by the way it includes you as responsible for actions that you would never condone.
Can we all now make the logical (and infinitesimal) step to how unfair the reverse logic is (to those who worship a different God)? How absurd it is to blame an entire people for the inhuman transgressions committed in his name?
Warfare is a way of life, people. Bloodshed is a an oft required mandate. Today, we have a reason to demand both....but not at the expense of morality; not at the expense of humanity. The manner in which we conduct these pursuits is what is under debate here....and it is in that manner that we allow history to differentiate "Good' from "Evil".
Stepping down from my soapbox.
Rich Lucibella
You reference my words. And I thank you for your outrage, as it underscores my point (and your humanity). 'Twas not hypocrisy at all, but hit-home hyperbole (recheck my last name
). And you are, rightfully, insulted. However, yours (ours?) is the God of smite, smote, child sacrifice, incest, Crusades, Witch Hunts, Inquisitions and worse, no? The real answer is "Not really, except to the uninitiated". And so, you are rightfully insulted by the ignorance of the statement; by the way it includes you as responsible for actions that you would never condone. Can we all now make the logical (and infinitesimal) step to how unfair the reverse logic is (to those who worship a different God)? How absurd it is to blame an entire people for the inhuman transgressions committed in his name?
Warfare is a way of life, people. Bloodshed is a an oft required mandate. Today, we have a reason to demand both....but not at the expense of morality; not at the expense of humanity. The manner in which we conduct these pursuits is what is under debate here....and it is in that manner that we allow history to differentiate "Good' from "Evil".
Stepping down from my soapbox.
Rich Lucibella
Rich,
There is NO morality in war. It is as immoral and savage an endeavour as man can embark on. Most of the major religions have major proscriptions against man killing his fellow man. When we cross that line, it is reduced to a question of semantics and rationalization. In for a penny, in for a pound. No one comes out clean!
There is NO morality in war. It is as immoral and savage an endeavour as man can embark on. Most of the major religions have major proscriptions against man killing his fellow man. When we cross that line, it is reduced to a question of semantics and rationalization. In for a penny, in for a pound. No one comes out clean!
Au contraire, mon ami. 'You really sure? In all cases? Is there no one instance you can think of where a war is justified, and therefore moral from your point of view. Then there is the way you conduct this war. There lies, in wait, immorality by the ton ... eh?
I always have a problem with those absolute, broad, sweeping, all-inclusive statements. "... NO morality ...". 'Sounds like, "There is NO morality in violence." Ever heard of self-defense and the employ of violence to save a life? See the analogy? There is plenty of morality in war. Some is actually rooted in principle. You don't have to agree with that (those) principle (s). There's the difference. Morality isn't absolute. It's based in priciples that are dogmatic, and sometimes expedient. Morals, morality, are very much of value to the practitioner of those principles, but perhaps of less value to the non-believer/non-practitioner.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
gburner-
No one disagrees that War, in its is execution is Amoral and Savage...that is its nature. So be it. When it becomes so in its planning, the amorality extends beyond the act, to those who call for it.
And that is, precisely, what is being debated here.
Dave-
I thought you might.
Rich
No one disagrees that War, in its is execution is Amoral and Savage...that is its nature. So be it. When it becomes so in its planning, the amorality extends beyond the act, to those who call for it.
And that is, precisely, what is being debated here.
Dave-
I thought you might.
Rich
Jeff Thomas
New member
Wow. I find some of this conversation circular, and frustrating.
Seems to me that most TFL members agree that there is a specific (albeit difficult to locate / target), relatively small group of Muslims (termed Islamists lately) who want to kill Americans and other non-Muslims. It also appears to me that most TFL members would like to seek those bastards out and kill them.
Sure, I don't read all these TFL threads ... who has time? But I hardly see a majority of TFL members calling for the murder of innocent Muslims ... contrary to Saudi Arabian government TV extolling the virtues of becoming a homicide bomber.
What does get frustrating is this nearly constant worry over not offending peaceful Muslims. OK! Most of us get it ... we agree!
Now, let's also agree that it is absurd to worry about targeting Islamists, or hurting their feelings.
Rich, with all due respect, I don't see a name for Islamists (or whatever we want to call them) as tantamount to "******". From my perspective, this is simply a recognition of the reality of war. Whether we want to participate or not, when one group of human beings goes to battle with another, then they usually dehumanize that group with some disparaging term. Seems to me that this happens over and over in history. Frankly, I think Dobbs attempt to describe these murderous savages with the term "Islamists" was balanced and logical. And, needed. He did NOT fall back on the mistake of targeting all Muslims as enemies of America.
On the one hand, all this gnashing of teeth about the morality of war, and not targeting innocent and peaceful Muslims shows how good Americans truly are. On the other hand, it is also imperative, IMHO, that we show absolute brutality to the bastards that kill innocent men, women and children. No ... I don't mean war crimes, torture and pursuit of innocents ... but I do mean bringing a rapid and violent end to the lives of Islamist murderers.
Really ... seems to me that most TFL members concur with this balanced perspective, no?
Regards from AZ
Seems to me that most TFL members agree that there is a specific (albeit difficult to locate / target), relatively small group of Muslims (termed Islamists lately) who want to kill Americans and other non-Muslims. It also appears to me that most TFL members would like to seek those bastards out and kill them.
Sure, I don't read all these TFL threads ... who has time? But I hardly see a majority of TFL members calling for the murder of innocent Muslims ... contrary to Saudi Arabian government TV extolling the virtues of becoming a homicide bomber.
What does get frustrating is this nearly constant worry over not offending peaceful Muslims. OK! Most of us get it ... we agree!
Now, let's also agree that it is absurd to worry about targeting Islamists, or hurting their feelings.
Rich, with all due respect, I don't see a name for Islamists (or whatever we want to call them) as tantamount to "******". From my perspective, this is simply a recognition of the reality of war. Whether we want to participate or not, when one group of human beings goes to battle with another, then they usually dehumanize that group with some disparaging term. Seems to me that this happens over and over in history. Frankly, I think Dobbs attempt to describe these murderous savages with the term "Islamists" was balanced and logical. And, needed. He did NOT fall back on the mistake of targeting all Muslims as enemies of America.
On the one hand, all this gnashing of teeth about the morality of war, and not targeting innocent and peaceful Muslims shows how good Americans truly are. On the other hand, it is also imperative, IMHO, that we show absolute brutality to the bastards that kill innocent men, women and children. No ... I don't mean war crimes, torture and pursuit of innocents ... but I do mean bringing a rapid and violent end to the lives of Islamist murderers.
Really ... seems to me that most TFL members concur with this balanced perspective, no?
Regards from AZ
I would like to see a response from "kill all the ragheads" crowd regarding Oleg Volk's post:
One more thing. If war is basically immoral however it is waged, what was the difference between the Nazis and us?
Lastly, though some of you might find this hard to believe, I chose to make this country my country because it is a noble country, perhaps the noblest humanity has seen yet. Sure it's not perfect. It's history is littered with bad things. But I dare you to find the history of another Great Power that is more or as noble as that of this nation.
There is and continues to be (because of people like Tamara, Don Gwinn, Oleg Volk and many others like them) a significant moral difference between our country and the likes of Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or Iraq - in war or in peace. If you don't recognize that, you don't deserve to be an American - then you are nothing but just another bully with a bigger gun (or more powerful country).
Skorzeny
One more thing. If war is basically immoral however it is waged, what was the difference between the Nazis and us?
Lastly, though some of you might find this hard to believe, I chose to make this country my country because it is a noble country, perhaps the noblest humanity has seen yet. Sure it's not perfect. It's history is littered with bad things. But I dare you to find the history of another Great Power that is more or as noble as that of this nation.
There is and continues to be (because of people like Tamara, Don Gwinn, Oleg Volk and many others like them) a significant moral difference between our country and the likes of Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or Iraq - in war or in peace. If you don't recognize that, you don't deserve to be an American - then you are nothing but just another bully with a bigger gun (or more powerful country).
Skorzeny
Skorzeny, while I'm not of the "kill all the ragheads" crowd, I believe the reason you haven't seen a response to Oleg's post is that his premise is factually inaccurate and invalid. He sets up a situation where a lone gunman in a neighborhood opens fire and you hose the neighborhood.
The scenario we face is that the gunman is in house A. The people in house B (his parents) raised him and taught him to hate you and that killing you is good. The people in house C told him to go kill you and that they would pay his parents should anything happen to him. His parents heartily agree to this situation, praising him for carrying out this plan. The people in house D give him the weapon, the people in house E give him the ammo, and the people in house F sight in the weapon on your house. All that's left for him is to pull the trigger. So, who's the innocent party?
This a gross oversimplification, of course, but far less so that Oleg's post. He disregards the "neighborhood's" active cooperation and assent to the actions of the terrorists. The question is not so much making war on the innocent as making war on the ones who support the terrorists.
The scenario we face is that the gunman is in house A. The people in house B (his parents) raised him and taught him to hate you and that killing you is good. The people in house C told him to go kill you and that they would pay his parents should anything happen to him. His parents heartily agree to this situation, praising him for carrying out this plan. The people in house D give him the weapon, the people in house E give him the ammo, and the people in house F sight in the weapon on your house. All that's left for him is to pull the trigger. So, who's the innocent party?
This a gross oversimplification, of course, but far less so that Oleg's post. He disregards the "neighborhood's" active cooperation and assent to the actions of the terrorists. The question is not so much making war on the innocent as making war on the ones who support the terrorists.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Jeff, the term "Islamists" is temporarily accurate, I agree. However, it is also synonymous with "Muslim"..or, at least, it will be tomorrow.
I do agree with you, that there's more agreement than dischord in this thread. My aim is at the "brittle edge" of some of the comments made. It's that edge that allowed us to do to Japanese-Americans what we did during WWII. I'm not proud of those types of actions. I doubt you are either.
It's only by recognizing the dangers of "Nationalism without Conscience" that we can prevent a repeat of such actions. This does not mean that Muslims will not suffer by association; just that they shouldn't die, be imprisoned or seen as combatants. I would, for instance, be all in favor of cancelling all US Visa's for citizens of a number of countries until the hostilities are ended. I'd close the borders to further emigration from these nations and I'd take a real close look at our foreign Aid dollars.
However, the Saudi's, for instance, are far more than a Passive-Agressive Ally. They are strategically essential to us. To denounce them (being among the least hard-line of the Arab governments) results only in fueling the flames throughout the Muslim world.
Rich
I do agree with you, that there's more agreement than dischord in this thread. My aim is at the "brittle edge" of some of the comments made. It's that edge that allowed us to do to Japanese-Americans what we did during WWII. I'm not proud of those types of actions. I doubt you are either.
It's only by recognizing the dangers of "Nationalism without Conscience" that we can prevent a repeat of such actions. This does not mean that Muslims will not suffer by association; just that they shouldn't die, be imprisoned or seen as combatants. I would, for instance, be all in favor of cancelling all US Visa's for citizens of a number of countries until the hostilities are ended. I'd close the borders to further emigration from these nations and I'd take a real close look at our foreign Aid dollars.
However, the Saudi's, for instance, are far more than a Passive-Agressive Ally. They are strategically essential to us. To denounce them (being among the least hard-line of the Arab governments) results only in fueling the flames throughout the Muslim world.
Rich
Master Blaster
New member
I'l interject a little Jewish philosphy here.
A great scholar Mamondies I think was once asked by a student if he could teach him the Torah (old testament ) while standing on one foot.
His reply that's easy:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, All the rest is commentary"
My enemy is not the three year old girl, its Yasser Arafat, Hamas, Fatah, Alqeada, and its leadership.
If the three year old is killed by a bomb as Arafat is removed, I will mourn her death. But my heart will be glad that her brother will be able to hold his head high and live in freedom.
A great scholar Mamondies I think was once asked by a student if he could teach him the Torah (old testament ) while standing on one foot.
His reply that's easy:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, All the rest is commentary"
My enemy is not the three year old girl, its Yasser Arafat, Hamas, Fatah, Alqeada, and its leadership.
If the three year old is killed by a bomb as Arafat is removed, I will mourn her death. But my heart will be glad that her brother will be able to hold his head high and live in freedom.
Well I have held off posting to this thread for this long but the time has finally come that I can keep quiet no longer. First I would like to second what buzz_knox just said. That is the reality of the Middle East. Yes Skorzeny I have been there I have been paitently waiting for 8 years for my prediction to come true.
I am also going to chime in with EnochGale here also. I will not be comming back to this forum and would like to take this opprotunity to ask Mr Rich to kindly remove my member status. Between the closing of the thread by LawDog, this thread, and unbelievably the thread about Jews in New York arming themselves I believe I have seen enough.
I would like to take just a second and state for the record that I have seen so many times on this very forum so many people come out and say things like if we could all carry on airplanes, if we could all carry anytime we pleased, crime, terrorism, etc etc etc would not occur and when a certain ethinic group tries to go out and do that very thing they get no more support than what they have on THIS forum. hmmmf well I see where the priorities around here lie.
I will now leave and part with a reading recomendation for Rich, Oleg, Tamara, Skorzeny, and Don Gwinn go pick up a copy of "The Innocents Abroad" by Mark Twain. Not only is the book very entertaining but very informative. I'll paraphrase one of the most important lines in the whole book.
The Moors only truly respect the Spainish. The respect them because when the Spainish have a problem with the Moors they send their biggest, and heaviestly armed ships to deal with them. They don't think much of the British, nor do they think much of us Americans because we send only one little lightly armed ship. We don't command their respect.
I am also going to chime in with EnochGale here also. I will not be comming back to this forum and would like to take this opprotunity to ask Mr Rich to kindly remove my member status. Between the closing of the thread by LawDog, this thread, and unbelievably the thread about Jews in New York arming themselves I believe I have seen enough.
I would like to take just a second and state for the record that I have seen so many times on this very forum so many people come out and say things like if we could all carry on airplanes, if we could all carry anytime we pleased, crime, terrorism, etc etc etc would not occur and when a certain ethinic group tries to go out and do that very thing they get no more support than what they have on THIS forum. hmmmf well I see where the priorities around here lie.
I will now leave and part with a reading recomendation for Rich, Oleg, Tamara, Skorzeny, and Don Gwinn go pick up a copy of "The Innocents Abroad" by Mark Twain. Not only is the book very entertaining but very informative. I'll paraphrase one of the most important lines in the whole book.
The Moors only truly respect the Spainish. The respect them because when the Spainish have a problem with the Moors they send their biggest, and heaviestly armed ships to deal with them. They don't think much of the British, nor do they think much of us Americans because we send only one little lightly armed ship. We don't command their respect.