5.56RifleGuy
New member
It is possible to tell someone not to point a gun at you, or do something else unsafe without being a jerk about it. I would say its more effective that way also.
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Sad story from PA
- Thread starter Pfletch83
- Start date
DLiller, precisely so. You can act decisively without acting abusively.
As to Apom, well, forum rules prevent me from responding as I might. Suffice it to say, the right of self defense is not a writ from government. It is a right the inheres in us as men. In fact, it is a right inhering unto every living creature. It is a right that predates the Constitution and the Magna Carta. And no government rightly usurps that right.
As to Apom, well, forum rules prevent me from responding as I might. Suffice it to say, the right of self defense is not a writ from government. It is a right the inheres in us as men. In fact, it is a right inhering unto every living creature. It is a right that predates the Constitution and the Magna Carta. And no government rightly usurps that right.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
At this time, I dont think there will be a solid answer on how to prevent this type of tragedy...
Go to a gun show, and you will here a constant complaint of "why do we have to zip tie our firearms?"
If I go to the majority of the retailers who sell firearms, they want to ensure the firearm is unloaded before its handled, but yet the customer complains "dont you trust me?"
Both are reasons why I tend to deal with smaller home based FFL's and avoid the rest when possible. It has to do with attitude, and ensuring everyones safety. Its also a reason why I tend to avoid public ranges as well.
Go to a gun show, and you will here a constant complaint of "why do we have to zip tie our firearms?"
If I go to the majority of the retailers who sell firearms, they want to ensure the firearm is unloaded before its handled, but yet the customer complains "dont you trust me?"
Both are reasons why I tend to deal with smaller home based FFL's and avoid the rest when possible. It has to do with attitude, and ensuring everyones safety. Its also a reason why I tend to avoid public ranges as well.
Many people think that the safety rules are only about preventing an incident in the present, but that's only part of it. Practicing muzzle control religiously is done to ingrain the behavior so that even when you know the gun is unloaded, you know it can't fire, you're tired, you're distracted, etc. you STILL control the muzzle automatically as the result of a lifetime of doing it right. Same thing with trigger finger discipline.
So don't fall into the trap of telling yourself (or letting someone else tell you) that the gun isn't loaded and so the safety rules don't apply right now. Otherwise, we will probably be reading about you one day...
So don't fall into the trap of telling yourself (or letting someone else tell you) that the gun isn't loaded and so the safety rules don't apply right now. Otherwise, we will probably be reading about you one day...
Fishing_Cabin
New member
JohnKSa,
You said it better then I did in my response... Thank you.
You said it better then I did in my response... Thank you.
While it doesn't take much effort to check that the chamber is empty (or not), this type accident seems to always happen with a semi-automatic. While it is possible that a revolver could be mostly empty, but contain one round in the chamber that rotates to the barrel as the trigger is pulled, it is obviously less likely. But it seems the very individuals who are not following safety rules are the same folks who will gravitate toward having a semi-auto, probably because that is what they see on TV.
Suffice it to say, the right of self defense is not a writ from government. It is a right the inheres in us as men. In fact, it is a right inhering unto every living creature. It is a right that predates the Constitution and the Magna Carta. And no government rightly usurps that right.
My feeling is that it is not only a right, but a responsibility to God to try to protect the life He has given you. I am not a "Bible thumper" but I do have some religious beliefs.
I'm saddened by this and other incidents involving children and firearms. My prayers go out to those people.
These things CAN be avoided however with proper education and practicing proper safety rules whenever handling or even just around firearms.
Just as the antis will take these incidents as chances to preach their anti-gun opinions and desires we as firearms enthusiasts should take these as chances to educate and teach others about firearms (the truth).
If everyone knew NOT to carry the gun with their finger on the trigger or NOT to assume the gun isn't loaded etc. and actually put that knowledge into practice then these NDs would be greatly reduced. If everyone also taught their young children properly about firearms then we wouldn't have incidents regarding kids who shot themselves or others while playing with mom/dad's gun.
As a responsible firearm owner and enthusiast I make it a point to educate my kids from very early on about proper respect and handling of firearms. I also bear in mind that my EDC is always loaded and cocked (unless its been stripped for cleaning in which case its simply not possible for the gun to go off when its sitting on the work bench in pieces).
In order to protect what limited freedoms we have today we need to be more active (not just reactive but PROACTIVE) in teaching others the truth about firearms and also in practicing what we teach on a daily basis.
These things CAN be avoided however with proper education and practicing proper safety rules whenever handling or even just around firearms.
Just as the antis will take these incidents as chances to preach their anti-gun opinions and desires we as firearms enthusiasts should take these as chances to educate and teach others about firearms (the truth).
If everyone knew NOT to carry the gun with their finger on the trigger or NOT to assume the gun isn't loaded etc. and actually put that knowledge into practice then these NDs would be greatly reduced. If everyone also taught their young children properly about firearms then we wouldn't have incidents regarding kids who shot themselves or others while playing with mom/dad's gun.
As a responsible firearm owner and enthusiast I make it a point to educate my kids from very early on about proper respect and handling of firearms. I also bear in mind that my EDC is always loaded and cocked (unless its been stripped for cleaning in which case its simply not possible for the gun to go off when its sitting on the work bench in pieces).
In order to protect what limited freedoms we have today we need to be more active (not just reactive but PROACTIVE) in teaching others the truth about firearms and also in practicing what we teach on a daily basis.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Exactly. The rules are there to be followed when we feel like it. They are there to prevent incidents just such as this one.JohnKSa said:Many people think that the safety rules are only about preventing an incident in the present, but that's only part of it. Practicing muzzle control religiously is done to ingrain the behavior so that even when you know the gun is unloaded, you know it can't fire, you're tired, you're distracted, etc. you STILL control the muzzle automatically as the result of a lifetime of doing it right. Same thing with trigger finger discipline.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
JohnKSa said:So don't fall into the trap of telling yourself (or letting someone else tell you) that the gun isn't loaded and so the safety rules don't apply right now. Otherwise, we will probably be reading about you one day...
Which is also why Rule #1 is properly stated "All guns are always loaded." rather than the oft used "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
"Treating it as if..." it's loaded implies that it is not really loaded so it's just a "game" or "exercise" to play and we don't really have to be careful.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Agreed. That was Cooper's objection to the "Treat as if ..." way of stating the rule, and he's right. The best way to ensure maximum (not absolute, as it can never be absolute as long as we are human and fallible) is to keep it simple, and program our dinosaur brain to be safe automatically.Brian Pfleuger said:Which is also why Rule #1 is properly stated "All guns are always loaded." rather than the oft used "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
"Treating it as if..." it's loaded implies that it is not really loaded so it's just a "game" or "exercise" to play and we don't really have to be careful.
And the NRA doesn't even get as emphatic as "Treat all guns as if they are loaded." The NRA only has three "fundamental" rules, as compared to Cooper's four. NRA Rule #3 says:
That's the rule part, then there's a verbose paragraph under that covering what to do when picking up a gun if you don't know it's empty. The rule itself is incomplete, because the rule doesn't address any gun that I am not storing. And it also doesn't address a self defense/home defense firearm, which by definition IS kept loaded until ready for use. (Even in Washington, DC, now.)3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Heck, for the NRA "Always be sure of your target and what lies beyond it" isn't even a fundamental rule ... that's just one of the "second tier," after-thought rules. When you think about it, what's the logic behind having a set of rules, and then following that set of rules giving a statement saying "When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules:" -- which aren't the same rules.
As an NRA instructor I am required to teach it their way, but I don't like it.
22-rimfire
New member
The Dad screwed up and has paid a tremendous price for his mistake. My prayers go out to him and his family.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Younggunz, that story is datelined December 9 and doesn't tell us anything that wasn't originally reported. Why post the link over a week later?
youngunz4life
New member
I noticed that after, my bad. I figured midas well leave it since you can't deletea post completely anyways & it might start up the conversation again. I was surprised the date was old, so I must've done something wrong...