S&W - Let me get this straight...

Bobshouse

New member
Boycotters are not going to drive S&W out of business. The boycott is considered over by almost everyone, except for a few dedicated to the cause. S&W reported record earnings last quarter. Gunshops in my area that would not stock S&W before are stocking and selling now, others have mentioned the same.

Read the agreement, the comments here and in other messages in the group, search the web for more info. If you base your decision on what they say here without checking other sites you are limiting yourself. I am sure you would get totally opposite remarks from smith-wessonforum.com.

Look around, gather facts, and make your own informed decision.

Bob
 

bastiat

New member
Yes, look around, gather facts, and would some S&W supporter please respond to the articles of the agreement and defend them? I'm waiting....
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Hmmm...

Let's see what revolvers by *&* are in the house right now:

25-2 6.5", 625-6 4" Mountain Gun, 629-1 3", 625-4 5", 57-1 4", 28-2 6", 296 2" AirLite Ti, 586 8 3/8", 686 6", 686 2.5", PC-13, 19-5 4", 12-2 2", 640 3", 36-1 3"

Nope, guess I don't have a leg to stand on when I say that "recent Taurus revolvers are plenty worthy of being included in my collection". I'm sure I'll wind up getting lectured on the true nature of revolver quality by someone whose total exposure to *&* wheelguns is a 686 they bought four months ago... :rolleyes:
 
"The boycott is considered over by almost everyone, except for a few dedicated to the cause. S&W reported record earnings last quarter."

God, what part of September 11 don't people understand?

That's not an indication that the boycott is over, it's an indication that a lot of new people are buying guns, who never would have considered purchasing guns before.

If that's the kind of "fact gathering" that's going on, it's not surprising that people are willing to believe what their local gunshop employees are telling them about the agreement.

If people can't grasp the concept of "dormant" vs "dead," I doubt if they'll be able to grasp much of what they read elsewhere.
 

Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
I don't get why we're arguing about quality. If quality were the issue I wouldn't be boycotting--I'd be buying Smiths so I could check out the quality. The boycott has nothing to do with how well-made the guns are. I stipulate that they make good revolvers, OK?

Now, as requested above (and as I requested on another thread, without effect) someone please go through that list above and tell me why those things are acceptable. Don't tell me they aren't, because you want me to accept them.
 

contender4040

New member
do a poll on this board---continue the boycott or ignore the boycott. You would probably see that it is not just a few die-hards left doing the boycotting.
Better yet, as previously stated, start a petition to smith to drop the provisions. Smith must change and live or do nothing and fade away. Either one is good for the industry. Smith still being in business under the "agreement" is not good for the industry or gun owners.
 

Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
Coati, I know you're probably kidding about that one, but just in case, I should point out that it doesn't cut anything in half. 14 days becomes the minimum. Thus I suddenly have to wait 14 days, so I lose big. You still have to wait longer, so you gain nothing. Sounds like we got screwed on that one.

Any others?
 

BIGSLOWHEAVY

New member
Go ahead and ignore the ban. Then are you going to buy one of the new politically correct smiths when they meet all of the requirements of this idiotic agreement? If so, have fun with your new POS series smiths.
 

Bobshouse

New member
Hey, I'm not going to sit here and argue with anyone about "The Agreement". Read into it what you will, god knows people have done it enough with the bible.

What I will argue is my right to make my own decisions, and your right to make yours. I don't care to "hang" with the in-crowd. I don't feel threatened by anyone's remarks or point of views, nobody can stone me for having a difference of opinion. I owe nothing to the people here and don't expect anything in return.

I do enjoy the commentary, the help, and the knowledge of the people who participate in the forum.

Differences of opinion is what makes the world sweet. Go ahead and hold to your beliefs, but don't criticize others for doing the same. Offer advice or guidance, but if not taken, don't sour and taunt just because they are not accepted.

I'm backing out of this thread as it is a "no win" situation and dividing the group. However I do look forward to participating in other areas of discussion.

Until then, have a happy and safe holiday season!

Bob
 

coati

New member
Don Gwinn,

I was. Maybe I was just trying to make a point about contradictory laws.

I'm kind of new this. Is there a history that explains why Smith entered into this agreement?

If this agreement is enacted, would the agreed upon points be new federal laws? Or business practice agreements? How would the agreements be enforced on a state level, say, in a state that has passed preemption laws?

Why aren't more dealers boycotting? Of the 7 or 8 dealers around me, only one refuses to sell Smith and is clear about why the boycott matters to them. They have a lot to lose, it seems, along with other dealers.

My opinion: if Smith enters into the agreement, they will be driven out of business by dealers who refuse to stock their products. Too much trouble.
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
Smith & Wesson Settlement Agreement (NRA Fact Sheet)

"If this agreement is enacted, ..."

This agreement is, I believe, 21 months old, but I've never seen a list of dealers who have "signed up." I am under the impression that if a dealer didn't sign the agreement with Smith by a certain date (after a certain time period), they would lose their "stocking dealer" status with the company. Someone else can (should) verify this. (Tamara?)

"... if Smith enters into the agreement, ..."

Smith was party to the original agreement.
 

Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
Bobshouse, I certainly respect that point of view, but as long as people keep asking I'm going to keep answering.

Smith is already part of the agreement and it is already in effect. It isn't currently being enforced by the Bush administration, but it's a legally binding contract between Smith and Wesson and the Federal Government, and anytime a new government decides to enforce it, they can. It's sort of like a cop enforcing a law--he has discretion as to whether he enforces the law in every case, but that doesn't nullify the law. It's still there, and if the next cop uses his discretion differently, that's too bad.

The agreement was essentially forced on Smith--the idea was to force it onto all the manufacturers, but in the end, only Smith signed. The antis have been initiating lawsuits on behalf of city, county, state and federal governments against gun makers for years. Most have now been thrown out of court for the trash they are, but it costs money to defend against them. HUD offered manufacturers a chance to settle the lawsuits, and Smith took it. As part of the settlement, they negotiated this agreement and signed it.

The provisions of the settlement are not technically new federal laws; they're the next best thing. The terms are part of a contract between Smith and the Government, and the contract is enforced by the government. Smith has to follow the terms or they're in deep trouble, the kind they might not get out of with the company intact. The Government has to follow them too, but there's not one term in that contract that benefits Smith or doesn't benefit the government, so that's not hard. The part that really burns people is that Smith didn't just agree to what their actions would be--they agreed to what the dealers and distributors would do as well, without consulting any of them. The dealers and distributors don't have to abide by the agreement--as long as they never sell another Smith and Wesson. If they sell one new Smith while not following the agreement to the letter, they're screwed. This is even worse when you consider that the idea was to have all the manufacturers forced into the same pact. I believe it was the threat of a boycott that kept Glock and some others out of it, but of course that's my opinion. Had all the manufacturers or even most signed, we'd have had a de facto ban on pre-ban full-capacity magazines, minors entering gunstores, sale of "assault weapons" that are perfectly legal. All those things would still be perfectly legal, so there wouldn't even be a law to repeal--but it WOULD be illegal for the manufacturers to sell any dealer who did them a single gun, because they'd have signed a legal contract not to do so. Do we all begin to see how insidious all this is?


Preemption laws would have no effect on the agreement. It's not legislation, but an agreement between a manufacturer and the government. If the idea is to make it illegal, well, it's already illegal under anti-trust and restraint-of-trade laws, except, as I understand it, that the government can do no wrong in those areas so the law won't be enforced. Nice, huh?


The reason more dealers aren't boycotting is that way too many dealers think the agreement is gone since it's not currently being enforced. Of course, a lot could happen between now and 2004. The looks on their faces will be interesting if, say, Al Gore comes roaring back (he's a loser and Bush is popular--right now--but he has history on his side.) Some, like Will's dealer, even think the agreement has been rescinded officially--but don't you think that would be public knowledge? A lot of others just plain don't care. They don't really believe anyone wants to put them out of business, or they think they have the money and manpower to live by the agreement while others go out of business and their market share increases, or they don't expect to be in the gun business five years from now.
 

Kevinch

New member
HAVE YOU NOTICED

...that the original post author that began this thread hasn't chimed in once since then?

Looks like the troller has his hook in a lot of keyboards...
 

PKAY

New member
I will NEVER buy a new Smith until and unless this onerous "agreement" is forthrightly and publicly repudiated by Smith & Wesson, period. In fact, they need to hire Mike Irwin to do the deed and then become Public Relations Manager for the company to regain its base.
 

C.R.Sam

New member
I have the feeling that most if not all of the Smith supporters have not CAREFULLY read the first agreement.

Couple of onerous parts that I do not often see mentioned are:

VII. Most favored entity.

If the manufacturer parties to this Agreement enter into an agreement with any other entity wherein they commit to institute design or distribution reforms that are more expansive than any of the above-enumerated items, such reforms will become a part of this Agreement as well.

In addition, if firearms manufacturers that are not party to this Agreement agree to design or distribution reforms that are more expansive than any of the above enumerated items, and if the manufacturers who are party to the other agreement(s) with more expansive terms, in combination with the manufacturer parties to this Agreement, account for fifty percent or more of United States handgun sales, manufacturer parties to this Agreement will agree to abide by the same design and distribution measures.

And:

VIII. Enforcement

The Agreement will be entered and is enforceable as a Court order and as a contract.

Sam....ex Smith dealer
 
Pkay,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but that would require my moving to Massachusetts. No way, No how.

All I can tell you is this. Were I an employee of S&W the day this agreement was signed, my only action on the next day would have been to clean out my desk.
 

Big Dog Dad

New member
My original post was not meant to be a troll. It was merely a request for information and opinions on the subject. My thanks for all of the enlightened information. Most (except for one) were very informative and enlightening. Of course, there will always be somebody on a board this size that will not offer anything informative, but merely throw out a flame.:( I'll leave it up to you to figure out who has nothing to offer but criticism.
 

Will Beararms

New member
Bought another gun Friday, not a Smith this time but again for the second time in a week another gun dealer told me that due to the wording of the HUD agreement, specifically that the terms would not pass to a new owner, the agreement is null and void.

Now either there's collusion on the part of many gun dealers in my area, the Smith Reps are lying to them or there's something to this.
 
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