Ruger SBH or ??? in .45 Colt

[Rothdel]

I'm a lefty and have always loved revolvers because I perceive them to be extremely left hand friendly.

Single action especially is about as perfectly designed for a lefty as anything I have ever seen in terms of a gun. Some people will disagree with me but even a double action revolver is ideal for the left handed shooter.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Of course it's pure myth. Never the less, the SAA is optimized for left handed shooters by sheer coincidence.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Mirror of Colt SAA

Decades ago, there was some fellow building mirror image replicas of the Colt SAA, with the loading gate on the left side. If they were good, they would likely be collector's items today. I think the guy was fueling the myth of the left-handed Colt.
Factoid: The Colt SAA is a left-handed gun.
Fact: It just turned out that way, without any intention of being so.
I knew that subject would get a ride out of someone.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Of course it's pure myth. Never the less, the SAA is optimized for left handed shooters by sheer coincidence.

I fail to see how the SAA is optimized for left handed shooters. When I load one I set the hammer at half cock while it is still in my right hand, and pop open the loading gate with my thumb. Then I transfer the gun to my left hand so I can work the extractor rod with my right hand, rotating the cylinder with the fingers of my left hand and dumping the empties into the palm of the hand holding the gun. While still holding the gun with my left hand, I reload with my right hand, which is more dexterous than my dumb left hand. I haven't shot C&B in a long time, but with caps it was always much easier for me to manipulate them with my right hand too.

Regarding the choice between a 45 Colt or a 44 Mag, at last count I only had two 44 Mags, one being double action. I have at least a dozen 45s, Rugers, Colts, and one Cimarron. Never been interested in barn busting ammo, standard velocity 45 Colt has always tripped my trigger.

45 Colt was the first cartridge I leaned to reload, so I could roll my own and not be restricted to what was available off the shelf, or pay factory prices.

 

[44 AMP]

First off, reloading a single action is a both hands evolution.

It may be an old wives tale, but this is the way I heard it, and old wives don't get everything wrong...

Colt designed his revolver for ease of right hand loading, with the gun being held in the left hand. Because most people are right handed, percussion caps are small, and it made the most sense that handling the small caps was easier done with the more dexterous hand.

The more "friendly" his pistols were to the greater number of people, the more he would sell. By the time the SAA came along, the frame cutout for the loading gate being where it always had been for caps, so it was familiar and "traditional", enhancing its sales appeal.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Here ya go.....

Well, here is an interesting article about the revolver with the loading gate on the left side: http://www.gunblast.com/Boge_TLA45FT.htm

 

[HistoryJunky]

I REALLY like the look of the SAA clones, but

I have heard that they are not as "strong" as the Blackhawk or SBH. What is the extent of the truth to this? I have read from several sources that the SAA in .45 Colt can only be loaded to a certain level and the Blackhawk can be loaded to a much higher pressure.

If I would use this gun for occasional handgun hunting, would I need that amount of higher pressure loading?

 

[Pathfinder45]

They aren't as strong as the Blackhawk. Still, they will launch a 255 grain cast bullet at or near 1,000 fps with optimal powders.
And what would be optimal powders to achieve such performance?
Well, near the top of that list would be fffg black powder. Also, powders that run from Unique, on the fast end, to AA-9, on the slower end, will get you in the ball-park. 950 fps is easy to achieve and is plenty of power for most purposes. Some guys like lighter or heavier slugs, but I much prefer 255 grain, hand-cast, round-nose-flat-point bullets in my 45.

 

[jackmoser65]

I've been shooting single actions for 40yrs and have never felt they were left handed. In truth, the SAA works either way. How well, is a matter of training, not configuration.

It was the late Bill Grover of Texas Longhorn Arms that developed several models of "right handed" single actions, including an Improved #5. They were usually very well made and have indeed achieved collector status.

 

[44 AMP]

I have heard that they are not as "strong" as the Blackhawk or SBH. What is the extent of the truth to this? I have read from several sources that the SAA in .45 Colt can only be loaded to a certain level and the Blackhawk can be loaded to a much higher pressure.

It is absolutely true, ...sort of...

The "sort of" part comes from the Ruger practice of using the same name, or very similar name for very different guns. Guns with different frame sizes, and strengths.

ok, lets be clear, when I say "Blackhawk", I'm talking about the "New Model Blackhawk", (post 1973 manufacture)
On the frame, left side, below the cylinder it says "New Model Blackhawk"

These guns use the "new model" lockwork, and are built on the .44 mag sized frame. This frame is larger than the frame size used by Colt for their Single Action Army (aka model P, aka Peacemaker), and its clones.

The reason for this is the difference in strength between castings and forgings. Castings must be larger to have the same metal strength as forgings. Ruger built his gun to be bigger, so the frame would be at least as strong as the Colt (and then I bit more, I suspect). The Ruger cylinder is a forging, just like the Colt and everyone else's. Because its made to fit in a larger frame window, it is larger than the Colt, and therefore stronger (more metal). (edit to add, since then, we have learned that Ruger's cast frame the same size as the Colt forged frame has adequate strength)

In the early 70s, handloaders found that the Blackawk .45 Colt would handle loads well above the factory maximum .45 Colt ammo (which was loaded to black powder pressures and velocities). These loads came to be called "RUGER ONLY" loads. At that time, there was only ONE Ruger .45 Colt model. Velocities and power levels matching the .44 Magnum could be done, but ONLY IN THE RUGER BLACKHAWK!!!!

Since then, Ruger has come out with other guns in .45 Colt, some which will take the RUGER ONLY Blackhawk loads, and some that will NOT!!!!

Ruger made a Colt style (fixed sight) single action they named the VAQUERO. It is the same frame size (and strength) as the Blackhawk. Still bigger than a Colt, but it looked like one. The idea was to make it more attractive to those people who wanted the traditional Colt LOOK. The VAQUERO will handle the hot "Ruger ONLY" load levels.

About a decade or so ago, Ruger dropped the VAQUERO and replaced it with the "NEW VAQUERO" it says "NEW VAQUERO" on the frame. It is a smaller gun than the Vaquero or the Blackhawk. It is the size of a Colt, and the looks of a Colt, and has the strength capacity of a Colt. It is NOT as strong as the Vaquero or Blackhawk, and is not rated for the heavy "Ruger Only" loads.

TO further confuse matters, Ruger has produced another size & style of frame, smaller than the new model frame, easily distinguishable by its "flat top". (it lacks the "hump" for the rear sight that is found on the new model frames), AND Ruger also named those guns "Blackhawk". They are not as big or as strong as the "standard" Blackhawk.

To help keep the confusion down, we call them "flat top models" but it is not an official name.

Now, as to what kind of power you need /want for hunting, that's up to you. The original .45 Colt blackpowder load ran a 250gr (255gr) bullet in the 900fps range, a little more on the higher end from longer barrels. People have been hunting (and doing other things) successfully with this load level since 1873.

Older reloading manuals, using COLTs as test guns max out a 250gr slug in the 1000fps range, depending on barrel length.

RUGER ONLY loads in the Blackhawk (the new model B, with the .44 frame) can drive a 250gr over 1200fps, with the extra power, and recoil that brings)

So, make sure what Ruger it is that you are talking about when you talk about strength and load level ability. It used to be simpler, today, not so much...

I realize its probably still as clear as mud, but I hope this helps some...

There's more to it, of course, and we're happily here to confuse you further, on request...

 

[HistoryJunky]

I can only imagine the amount of confusion this would create for a gun store employee as well. [emoji14]

I am pretty sure I understand all that. I don't understand why Ruger wouldn't make it more clear though. It seems like if someone got hurt as a result, there could be a lawsuit.

I have not ever shot a .45 Colt or a .44 Magnum. When loaded to similar levels, do they feel similar in recoil impulse or are they clearly different?

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

 

[jackmoser65]

The mid frame flat tops hearken back to the original 357 Blackhawks, which were a smaller, Colt sized frame. All old model 357's were built on this smaller frame. Ruger reintroduced the frame size in 2005 with the New Vaquero and 50th anniversary 357 Blackhawk. They have since built 44 Special, 357 Magnum and 45 Colt & ACP convertible guns on the same frame.

Not all new model flat tops are mid frames though. The 50th anniversary 44 Magnum Blackhawk and a subsequent 41 Magnum distributor special are built on a large, flat top frame.

 

[Bob Wright]

O.K. Most men shot right handed with the revolver. So the reins were held by the left hand. So, to load, the revolver was shifted to the left hand which held both the revolver and the reins. The right hand was then able to fetch cartridges from the belt and guide them into the chambers.

Bob Wright

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Under the heading of a picture is worth a thousand words, here is a graphic illustration of why a Ruger Blackhawk is a stronger revolver than a Colt. The cylinder in the center is from a Ruger Vaquero (the old style with the larger frame). This cylinder is the exact same size as the cylinder in a modern Blackhawk, the standard Blackhawk built on the standard frame. The cylinder on the left is from an Uberti Cattleman, the cylinder on the right is from a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army. All three cylinders are chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge.

You can plainly see there is more steel between the chambers of the Ruger than either the Colt or the Uberti. A more subtle difference, not visible in this photo, is that the cuts in the cylinder for the locking bolt are directly over the chambers of the Colt and the Uberti. This spot where the bolt cut sits is the weakest spot on any revolver cylinder, if the cylinder lets go, that is where it will start. In addition to there being more metal between chambers on the Ruger cylinder, Ruger also shifted the position of the locking bolt cuts so they are not directly over each chamber but are slightly to one side, meaning there is more metal between the chamber and the bottom of the bolt cut.

I am not going to open the can of worms that often starts in these discussions about how much pressure each cylinder can take, but the relative strength of the three should be obvious.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

O.K. Most men shot right handed with the revolver. So the reins were held by the left hand. So, to load, the revolver was shifted to the left hand which held both the revolver and the reins. The right hand was then able to fetch cartridges from the belt and guide them into the chambers.

I think it is pretty well documented that in the cavalry troopers were trained to dismount and fight standing on the ground, while one trooper took control of several horses. So holding the reins and loading at the same time would have been a moot point.

However it is also well documented that with the Schofield model a trooper could unlatch the revolver with one hand by manipulating the latch with his thumb, and break open the revolver by brushing it across his leg. Those skillful enough to do this while riding could transfer the gun to the other hand while fishing for cartridges with the right. However, not being an accomplished horseman myself, I have been told that a good rider could steer the horse with his knees, while reloading with both hands.

 

[44 AMP]

Few people today actually realize just how great an advance, and advantage cartridge firearms were over what they were using.

Re-Loading a single action cartridge revolver could actually be done on a galloping horse, though it certainly wasn't an easy task, compared to reloading a cap & ball gun, it was a piece of cake.

People look at a Trapdoor and think, "its only a single shot" but think about it in it's day, (admittedly brief though it was) it was a rifle you could shoot, reload, shoot, reload, and do it again and again, and do it LAYING DOWN!!!!!
(which made you a much smaller target!)

 

[Sevens]

44AMP, awesome post #30.
HistoryJunky, I can't really agree about a lawsuit so much. Obviously... anyone can sue for anything (we sure see it...) but heavy .45 Colt loads are simply -NOT- industry standard SAAMI-spec ammunition. Boutique ammo makers like Buffalo take more risks than Ruger does or ever will because Ruger produces and markets these revolvers only for SAAMI-spec factory new ammunition.

Suggesting that Ruger worry about people having a bad day with .45 Colt is much akin to Chevrolet worried about the potential of a Corvette crash at 170 mph. We know what the car is capable of but you won't win against GM when you and Mario Andretti go airborn.

I am avid, long time hobbyist handloader and I find it a little entertaining that I simply cannot post about some of the loads I build in .38 Special brass on an open forum... but the .45 Colt is almost expected to be a "magnum" round by anyone with a Ruger .45. The two are not different, really.

SAAMI is a very good thing for gunmakers, ammo makers and consumers. But not everyone agrees all the time.

 

[tallball]

Great posts by 44amp and Driftwood!

 

[HistoryJunky]

44AMP, awesome post #30.
HistoryJunky, I can't really agree about a lawsuit so much. Obviously... anyone can sue for anything (we sure see it...) but heavy .45 Colt loads are simply -NOT- industry standard SAAMI-spec ammunition. Boutique ammo makers like Buffalo take more risks than Ruger does or ever will because Ruger produces and markets these revolvers only for SAAMI-spec factory new ammunition.

Suggesting that Ruger worry about people having a bad day with .45 Colt is much akin to Chevrolet worried about the potential of a Corvette crash at 170 mph. We know what the car is capable of but you won't win against GM when you and Mario Andretti go airborn.

I am avid, long time hobbyist handloader and I find it a little entertaining that I simply cannot post about some of the loads I build in .38 Special brass on an open forum... but the .45 Colt is almost expected to be a "magnum" round by anyone with a Ruger .45. The two are not different, really.

SAAMI is a very good thing for gunmakers, ammo makers and consumers. But not everyone agrees all the time.

No I actually agree with what you're saying. I was just looking at it from the people sue for anything angle.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

 

[Pathfinder45]

No matter how good a rider is, he's no better than his team-mate, the horse. No matter how good the horse is, he's no better than his rider. Even if you have an excellent rider and excellent horse, if they don't really know each other, they won't be as good as they could be. An intimate, horse-rider team, can do marvelous work together. Personally, I wouldn't discharge a firearm from a horse's back, or even very close to the horse. Someone else may train their horse to tolerate gunfire and hearing damage, but I won't. In previous centuries it may have been necessary, but not now. In my view, it's unnecessary, cruel, and dangerous. In war, all those things occur as the regular course of events.
I've spent a fair amount of time horseback on a number of horses, including riding with loaded weapons. But I have always had the consideration to dismount, secure the horse, and move a reasonable distance away before taking a shot at anything. YMMV.