Robert Tolan shooting (Bellaire, TX) and the right to resist false arrest.
- Thread starter rantingredneck
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rantingredneck
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While I am sure this is absolutely true, it is not reasonable to assume that every person an officer encounters is guilty or is lying to them.
vranasaurus
New member
So they get to assume that everyone is lying to them?
There are officers who lie everyday to get warrants, on reports, and about the "honest mistakes" they make.
Do I get to assume every officer is doing such things?
I'll bet if he would have been, calm, polite and compliant the whole unfortunate situation would have been quickly cleared up. I know thats what I would have done.
Please don't ask me what I would do if the police shoved my mother up against the garage, because A) I don't live with my mother and B) she would never come running out of the house, screaming, yelling and interfering with the police.
Please don't ask me what I would do if the police shoved my mother up against the garage, because A) I don't live with my mother and B) she would never come running out of the house, screaming, yelling and interfering with the police.
the cops will investigate themselves.
regardless of whether the cops' actions were indeed reasonable or justified, if the investigation finds they are, it will be viewed as tainted. as it should be.
this is why we are supposed to have elected officials overseeing these employees. its up to the elected officials to protect citizens from abuse by government employees. that system, if it ever worked, broke down a long time ago, so no one trusts it anymore.
it is hard to say how this will play out, or even what really happened, as everyone will have their own story, and the lawyers for those involved will make sure they have their stories well memorized.
at least the victim is not dead and can speak up for himself.
regardless of whether the cops' actions were indeed reasonable or justified, if the investigation finds they are, it will be viewed as tainted. as it should be.
this is why we are supposed to have elected officials overseeing these employees. its up to the elected officials to protect citizens from abuse by government employees. that system, if it ever worked, broke down a long time ago, so no one trusts it anymore.
it is hard to say how this will play out, or even what really happened, as everyone will have their own story, and the lawyers for those involved will make sure they have their stories well memorized.
at least the victim is not dead and can speak up for himself.
+ 1 nate.
If my computer tells me your car is stolen and you can't prove it isn't, it is and you are going in.
I again don't understand the anti-police aminus.
We make mistakes----and we pay retail for them as my brother on the BART is finding out, hopefully a jury will exonerate him and he can get on with his life
If my computer tells me your car is stolen and you can't prove it isn't, it is and you are going in.
I again don't understand the anti-police aminus.
We make mistakes----and we pay retail for them as my brother on the BART is finding out, hopefully a jury will exonerate him and he can get on with his life
RedneckFur
New member
Well, at least we know who came here with an agenda
While I do not think that you're allowed to resist arest, when somone is hurt or killed as a result of a false arrest, I feel the offending officer should be charged with assault or manslaughter, and serve the appropritate time in a penal facility. I can be held criminally liable for mistakes I make at my job. Its only fair that the police do as well.
There needs to be a stronger set of checks and balances when it comes to how our laws are inforced. When innocent lives are at risk, there are no room for mistakes.
Its common sense, that you should follow orders when arrested even if innocent, and take your day in court to prove yourself innocent. That said, I think I know how I, and most of us would react if we saw a strange man roughing up our mothers.
For me, its not a clean cut case. I think a jury should get a chance to sort this out.
No more comments about BART, in this thread. They are off topic.
As far as this particular incident goes, the police typed in a license plate number and got back the results. At that point, they had probable cause. Everything that followed appears to be within reason.
The time to argue, generally, is in court. Not at the point of arrest.
I'm not a betting man, but in this instance, if the arresting officers had had the time to confront the suspect about the stolen vehicle, I'd wager that things could have been cleared up, rather quick.
From what we (think we) know, things happened rather fast and the police had no time to tell the suspect why he was being arrested. The innocent suspect aggravated the situation and was shot. Luckily, it wasn't fatal and all he is being charged with is resisting arrest.
The general feeling of some of you, about how bad cops are, is not just misplaced. It's unwarranted. Any other conclusions, are nothing more than you folks reading into the incident, things that are not in evidence.
As far as this particular incident goes, the police typed in a license plate number and got back the results. At that point, they had probable cause. Everything that followed appears to be within reason.
The time to argue, generally, is in court. Not at the point of arrest.
I'm not a betting man, but in this instance, if the arresting officers had had the time to confront the suspect about the stolen vehicle, I'd wager that things could have been cleared up, rather quick.
From what we (think we) know, things happened rather fast and the police had no time to tell the suspect why he was being arrested. The innocent suspect aggravated the situation and was shot. Luckily, it wasn't fatal and all he is being charged with is resisting arrest.
The general feeling of some of you, about how bad cops are, is not just misplaced. It's unwarranted. Any other conclusions, are nothing more than you folks reading into the incident, things that are not in evidence.
rantingredneck
New member
According to his interview Mr. Tolan was never given the opportunity to prove otherwise. He was on his front porch on the way into his house when he was lit up with a flashlight at gunpoint and ordered onto his face. He complied at that point. When his father came out to talk to the police officers he was compliant and himself assumed the position against his own vehicle. All the while explaining that the vehicle in question was not stolen. Keep in mind that Bellaire is a rather well to do suburb of Houston and the Tolan's had lived there for some 15 years and were prominent citizens.
Granted his mother probably was a little out of sorts, but I suspect many of us here would be if a quiet evening at home was interrupted in this way. When Mr. Tolan stood up he made a mistake. Shouldn't have nearly cost him his life IMO. Shouldn't have cost him his career.
I'm sure there is another side to this story, and a jury will eventually be the trier of fact. What I've seen and read of the story does not look good for the officers involved or the city, but we shall see I suppose.
vranasaurus
New member
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
The state must prove that the vehicle is stolen not the other way around.
I have no animus toward the police and I don't think it is right for anyone to resist arrest.
But I also have a problem with the automatic assumption of guilt and the attitude of we can do no wrong that many oficers have.
The other question I have is what was the justification for the use of deadly force?
Innocence and guilt are matters for the courtroom not the crime scene.
I just don't think that 99.9% of the Cops out there act in the jackbooted way you are inferring.
Use of Force rules vary from department to department. Just from the scant particulars I can't make a judgement on good shoot/badshoot. But, car theft is a felony in Illinois, which changes a lot on the use of force spectrum.
Reread OP good shoot Offender is actiing in a way in which his actions will likely cause serious physical injury.
Restraining Mom in policy actions are aggressive without weapon---- she could have had impact weapon utilized against her
The bottom line is cooperate with the Police and consult your lawyer when you make bail.
Isn't that the advice given to CCW after a shooting, cooperate with booking and utilize your Miranda rights.
If that simple rule had been followed there would be NO ISSUE
If he and she had just cooperated he would have gotten an apology and "have a good evening"
I just don't think that 99.9% of the Cops out there act in the jackbooted way you are inferring.
Use of Force rules vary from department to department. Just from the scant particulars I can't make a judgement on good shoot/badshoot. But, car theft is a felony in Illinois, which changes a lot on the use of force spectrum.
Reread OP good shoot Offender is actiing in a way in which his actions will likely cause serious physical injury.
Restraining Mom in policy actions are aggressive without weapon---- she could have had impact weapon utilized against her
The bottom line is cooperate with the Police and consult your lawyer when you make bail.
Isn't that the advice given to CCW after a shooting, cooperate with booking and utilize your Miranda rights.
If that simple rule had been followed there would be NO ISSUE
If he and she had just cooperated he would have gotten an apology and "have a good evening"
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rantingredneck
New member
Wagonman, you are absolutely correct here. However, if the 2 officers involved had doublechecked the license plate digits there would also have been no issue.
vranasaurus
New member
Just make bail and talk to your lawyer is fine but you seem to have no problem with officers arresting people who have done nothing wrong. Just because the system will work it out doesn't it make it all right. If Mr. Tolan cooperated there would still be an issue (arresting of an innocent person) and that is what you fail to see. The only issue you see is the resisting arrest had there been no resistance you would see no problem with how this played out.
It is not OK to resist arrest and it is not OK for the officers to use excessive force and/or arrest innocent people. From looking at the available information there should be consequences on both sides. You are not looking at both sides.
It is not OK to resist arrest and it is not OK for the officers to use excessive force and/or arrest innocent people. From looking at the available information there should be consequences on both sides. You are not looking at both sides.
Au contraire, If he had cooperated produced his license and REGISTRATION and still had been arrested your arguement would hold water. At the time of his and his mother's ill-advised action he was a SUSPECT in a car theft INVESTIGATION. His actions his fault.
Do not argue finer points of arrest and detention you will lose all day as long as Police Officer is acting REASONABLY.
Do not argue finer points of arrest and detention you will lose all day as long as Police Officer is acting REASONABLY.
vranasaurus
New member
Reasonableness would include verifying information. Just because the plates match doesn't mean it's a stolen vehicle. Did they bother to match the vehicle description?
Had the officers bothered to verify information there would have been no need for a traffic stop.
Had the officers bothered to verify information there would have been no need for a traffic stop.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Yes, innocent until proven guilty. The State would have to prove the vehicle was stolen in COURT, after Tolan and his buddy have been arrested. Even though you are presumed innocent until proven guilty, you can get arrested. You aren't convicted and then arrested.
This whole line of debate seems pointless.
One side thinks cops can do no wrong, no matter what they do, and the other thinks cops can do no right.
The cops are claiming somehow that their mistake makes it OK that they ended up shooting an innocent man and roughed up an old woman. Its understandable why that position would ruffle a few feathers.
Cops think average citizens should obey police orders or be subject to whatever force the officers on the scene deem appropriate. Average citizens mostly just want to be left alone and resent being ordered around like serfs by supposed public servants.
Some how, some way, we as a society are going to have to deal with this divide between what police see as reasonable police conduct and what the average citizen sees as reasonable.
One side thinks cops can do no wrong, no matter what they do, and the other thinks cops can do no right.
The cops are claiming somehow that their mistake makes it OK that they ended up shooting an innocent man and roughed up an old woman. Its understandable why that position would ruffle a few feathers.
Cops think average citizens should obey police orders or be subject to whatever force the officers on the scene deem appropriate. Average citizens mostly just want to be left alone and resent being ordered around like serfs by supposed public servants.
Some how, some way, we as a society are going to have to deal with this divide between what police see as reasonable police conduct and what the average citizen sees as reasonable.
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