Road rage scenario

[pax]

Awhile back I got rear-ended as I was turning into my driveway. In the van with me were three of my own children and our teenage babysitter.

The nearest neighbor's home is over 1/4 mile away. It was mid-morning and neither of our nearest neighbors would have been home anyway. We live a good 20 minutes from a "fast" police response.

The guy hit my van hard enough to jolt all of us and hard enough to total his little Nissan truck on the rear corner of my van (good old American steel). I was able to pull my van off the rural highway that runs past our house, but his truck wasn't moving another inch without a tow truck.

After quickly checking the everyone in my van was ok, I got out of the van to check on the guy who'd rear-ended me. Because he'd hit so hard and the truck looked so bad, I thought he might need medical assistance.

As I approached, the guy jumped out of his vehicle, yelling obscenities. "What the f*** were you doing, lady? My ****ing DOG could drive better!!"

He was in his 20's and probably twice my size. As he yelled at me, he began advancing toward me with his fists waving.

What would your reaction be in this situation and why?

pax


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"Is there anything wrong with a woman preferring the dignity of an armed citizen? I don't like to be coddled and I don't like to be treated like a minor child. So I waive immunity and claim my right -- I go armed." -- Longcourt Phyllis in Beyond This Horizon by Robert Heinlein

 

[John/az2]

My first reaction would be to start backing away from him, even as I try to get him to calm down... back toward the van with intent to get back in and lock the doors. I would NOT take my eye off of him and would certainly be prepared to draw (assuming I were carrying) should he become more aggresive.

Should I make it to the van and be able to get in and secure everyone, I would get the license plate number of the truck...

Drive away and phone it in? Or still try to reason with the guy through the window?

After the initial reaction of backing away, there are so many different directions that this could go...

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...

 

[David Scott]

In this situation, with your vehicle still mobile and his stuck, you get back in your car and get away from him. DO NOT go to your house if you can help it; go someplace with people around. Call it in from a safe distance. Go back with a Sheriff's Deputy to settle the matter.

 

[mk86fcc]

A few possible options, listed in no particular order:

1) Get back in the vehicle and depart the scene for nearest public place. Call police from there, if cell phone enroute was not an option. Provide police as much info as possible.

2) Shout for kids to get down, prepare to draw weapon while back-pedaling and trying to de-escalate situation.

3) Go on offensive. While shouting and screaming incoherently that he could have killed the kids, etc., advance waving arms and just generally acting like an insane person. Sounds stupid, but I've seen it work - puts them on the defensive, and tends to completely disorient them.

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed

 

[FUD]

Sounds like a FUD File to me

I would advise a COMBINATION of what mk86fcc suggested ... go on the offensive and start screeming at him that his careless driving could have injuried or killed the children in your car and then he would be charged with Manslaughter (in all likelihood that's a false statement but HEARING that might shock some of the aggression out of him). However, I would NOT approach him while doing this for two reasons: [1] If acting hostile doesn't disorient him and the aggression out of him, you've now placed yourself closer to the threat; and [2] Acting 'hostile' & 'crazy' and put him on the defensive to the point that he might think that he is in danger from YOU and he may feel that for HIS safety, he has to strike first.

Instead, act angry/crazy and at the same time try to retreat to your car by even demanding his paperwork and saying that you're going to get a pen & paper to write stuff down ... whatever, but try to make it to your car. Once you're inside, lock the door and dial 911 on your cell phone. If he tries to get in, and your car is driveable, LEAVE. If your car is not driveable (after a heavy hit, even though the car may not look badly damaged, some car disengage the fuel tank to prevent a possible explosion -- so, even though your car might look okay to drive, nothing my happen when you step on the gas), then drive away if you can. If not, make sure all of the doors are locked and draw you weapon making sure that he sees it but do not point it at him -- seeing the gun may also scare him off.

Tell him that you're armed and prepared to use deadly force if he continues to escalate the situation (meaning, successfully gets inside the car). Continue with your call to 911 and when you are on the phone with the operator, repeat your warning to him if he is still trying to get inside the car ... saying something to the effect that you are armed and will use deadly force if he forces his way into the car -- say this is a loud clear voice because everything you say is being recorded and if you do have to shoot to defend yourself, it will be document by the police that you were fearful for your safety and that of those in the car with you.

Of course, all of this ASSUMES that [1] you have a cell phone and [2] you are armed.

 

[scud]

You could have tried to pacify him by promising social programs. Hey, it works for Gore and the Clinton administration.

I don't think that yelling etc is a good idea, it could just escalate the situation. If your packing I'd just be ready, sometimes people freak out when in a accident, I've been in them and have seen people go into shock and all kinds of crap. Could be that he may calm down, I know it's a bad scene but throwing gas on the fire probably wouldn't help, especially w/ kids in the car. Locking the doors is a good idea though and possibly leaving to call the cops is a good idea too. If it's gets too out of hand I suppose you don't have much choice but to defend yourself & your family. It's really a shame that in a situation like that I'd be way more worried about what the cops and judge would do to me then what the guy advancing on me could do. I also like FUD's last suggestion, although if he went for your car at all I'd take him down right then, assuming you're packing.

[This message has been edited by scud (edited September 26, 2000).]

 

[Allen_Raiford]

Shouting, etc. would probably escalate the situation. Also, if you had to shoot him, you may be perceived as the aggressor.
Retreat, tell him to stay away from you, and be prepared to defend.

 

[Tony III]

Allen, I'll second that.

Draw firearm take off the safety (if needed)& aim COM. Keep your finger OFF the trigger.

Back away while shouting STOP!

Get in your van, if possible get his plate # from inside your vehicle & drive to the police station or nearest public place.

"As he yelled at me, he began advancing toward me with his fists waving." You were being attacked, be sure that you have the proper mindset to recognise the fact at the time & make sure that fact & your fear from being in immenent danger is conveyed to the police.

(Being placed in immenent danger is an attack. Being at the mercy of a violent or unstable individual is being in immenent danger. Without a drawn gun, being faced with an advancing, violent individual 2X your size, is being at their mercy.)

"even as I try to get him to calm down..." He calms down or he goes down! Leave that decision up to him & take care of you & your own.

" Tell him that you're armed and prepared to use deadly force if he continues to escalate the situation (meaning, successfully gets inside the car)" The idea of telliing him you're armed without presenting the weapon is the worst advise I've heard in a while and what's this about letting him get inside your car? only someone's who's suicidal would wait that long. Sorry FUD I don't want to start a flame war with you, but there's just somthing not right about that line of thinking.

Come to think of it, what's wrong with all of you? Not one of you said "draw to protect your retreat", that's just messed up. If I lived across the street from pax & witnessed this happening I'd be out the front door with my AR or at least a pistol before whatever I'd been holding had hit the floor. Don't think so? Well one night earlier this summer there was a crash in front of my house. Within seconds I was out there with a mag-lite & a glock (just in case).

-- Si vis pacem, para bellum

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[FUD]

Tony, maybe I didn't make myself clear or maybe it came out wrong in the typing but this is what I meant ... once pax was already inside her car with the doors locked and the gun already in hand to see, make the statement that you are armed and prepared to use deadly force to defend yourself for the purpose of having it recorded in the 911 call so that it can be demonstrated that you used deadly force as a last result. Again, you're not saying this for his benefit as he should be able to figure out that you have a gun by seeing it in your hand. You're saying it for the purpose of having it officially documented with the 911 recording that you gave him fair warning to leave you alone and did everything possible to avoid shooting him.

Additionally, pax said that the NEAREST neighbor was OVER a quarter of a mile away. That being the case, I wouldn't count on them for any assistance in this case.

FUD

 

[Tony III]

I was saying that about being her neighbor to show how seriously I'd treat the situation.

Oh I see what you mean now but still, if you're in the car with the doors locked, why aren't you driving away?

1: Your gun gun pointed at his chest. 2: Your car driving away.

or

1: Your gun pointed at his chest. 2: Meat wagon driving him away.

It's very simple, STOP OR DIE! no reason to make it any more complicated than that.

 

[FUD]

Tony, again, what I said applies if you can't leave the scene because either his car is blocking you (pax did say that this happened as she was pulling into her driveway) or one of the car's safety features kicked in disengaging the fuel tank to prevent a possible fire and now pax can't start the car.

By the way pax, how did you handle it? I'm assuming all went very which means that you handled it correctly.

 

[ATTICUS]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any mention of a weapon involved here. Is there?
Did you do something to cause this wreck? If yes, is an apology in order? Either way don't do anything to increase his anger. If his anger persists - get away and get help.

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

I've seen this reaction many times. The guy who hit Pax from the rear is at fault. He knows that he is at fault. He tried to get out of the responsibility for the accident by acting angry. Some people believe that if they shout louder, interrupt, or otherwise divert attention from their own dumbass stunts, that somehow they can shift blame to someone else. You see it on the news every night.

Will

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Mendacity is the system we live in.

[This message has been edited by WLM (edited September 26, 2000).]

 

[Mike Irwin]

Very similar thing happened to a friend of mine several years ago.

Friend was obeying the speed limit on his street (25 MPH, which drives people who use the street as a cut through wild), and was turning left into his driveway when the car that had been tailgating him tried to pass on the LEFT and rammed the rear door, jolting my friend and his wife pretty badly.

Guy leaps out of his car scream obscenities, yelling about how slowly he was going, etc. My friend tries to placate him, by this time there are several witnesses, he's worried about his wife (badly wrenched her neck due to the angle of impact), etc.

Guy finally starts swinging. Guy's big, well over 200, my friend is small, 5-8 and 145.

The BIG difference is that my friend is a Federal Police Officer. He sent the guy "South of the Border," then arrested him for assault.

This is a LONG way of saying that you should ALWAYS carry 3 things with you when you have a CCW.

1. A cell phone.
2. Pepper spray.
3. Handgun.

They should also be used roughly in that order.

With those three items you have 3 opportunities to de-escalate a situation before having to actually fire.

Here's how I THINK the scenario should go. Of course, this could differ considerably given any situation...

1. Tell the person you're calling the police.

2. If they threaten you or attempt to attack you, inform them that you will "Send the South of the Border." If they continue, spray them.

3. If that doesn't work, draw the handgun, inform them you are armed, and if they don't back off, you're going to shoot. If that doesn't work, then, and only then, shoot.

With the exception of time at the office, I'm armed 100 percent of the time. I can't remember the last time I ventured out of the house without my 3 items.

Oh, as a final note -- The guy my friend arrested? He was the son of my friend's duty captain!

When the duty captain found out about it, his comment was "Good, he needed something like this." Apparently the boy (23 or so) has been quite the disappointment.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

IMHO, having kids in your car is the critical factor. Any discharge of anyone's firearm is much more problematic at this point. If my boy is in a car next to me (or any other innocents, for that matter), I am going to do anything possible to avoid having this come to firearms. (This doesn't mean I'm going to let the guy beat me / us to a pulp, however.)

Getting back into the car, locking the doors and getting on the cell phone is the best idea, IMHO. If you could do it without tipping the guy off, I would get my firearm in my hand, in case he escalates to a lethal force level in spite of your 'retreat'. If he continues ranting, and if you can't raise anyone on the cell, then you drive away. If he pulls a gun and threatens you and the children, then he is yours, and may your range time have been well spent.

My $0.02.

Regards from AZ

 

[Tony III]

"you should ALWAYS carry 3 things with you when you have a CCW. 1. A cell phone. 2. Pepper spray. 3. Handgun. They should also be used roughly in that order. With those three items you have 3 opportunities to de-escalate a situation before having to actually fire."

I'm sorry but that's "Cop thinking" If someone presents a threat; RUN AWAY. The gun is to clear a path (if needed). Having that clear in your head before hand places you on the best moral, legal, and practical footing as is possible. A Cop needs to "de-escalate" or control a situation. They have backup, partners, special training, equipment & legal protection as officers of the law which make that possible. On the other hand you simply need to survive, there's a reason why they call it the "fight or flight reaction" If you can't flight, it's time to fight. If you're forced to shoot, you're FORCED to shoot. Otherwise sort it out after the fact once you're no longer in jeapordy.

FUD, establishing a fortified position is the equivalent of fleeing. Use the van as cover & a support for the gun and order the guy to the ground, send the kids in to call 911. Under no circumstance would I ever willingly let some nutcase get as close to me or mine as many of you seem to be proposing.

No insult to pax intended but things turning out ok does not mean that it was handled correctly. After all if you play Russian Roulette you'll be right five out of six times.

pax, what happened & what about your kids, did the incident have a good (education about the world + mom's real tough) impact on them or was it detrimental (scared & traumatized)?

[This message has been edited by Tony III (edited September 26, 2000).]

 

[pax]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>By the way pax, how did you handle it? I'm assuming all went very which means that you handled it correctly.[/quote]

Thanks to all who posted here -- very educational.

FUD, it did all end well but I didn't exactly handle it correctly, unless you count standing there gaping like a dead fish as the correct way to handle this situation.

The other guy's car was blocking the end of my driveway, and we're far enough off the beaten path that we don't get a cell phone signal out here. So there really was no question of getting back in my van and either leaving or dialing the police; the cell phone starts working only when I'm about ten miles closer to town.

What did happen was that our teenage sitter, Julie, quickly hopped out of the van on the far side from where the action was and hustled my kids into the house at a dead run. She didn't consult me even with a look; merely assessed the situation and decided that the kids needed to be elsewhere. She was inside the house with the front door locked and talking on the phone with 911 before I even realized she had gotten out of the van.

What was I doing? Well. I stood there with my mouth open staring at the guy as he spouted his obscenities. I didn't retreat. I didn't holler back. I didn't even think of going for a weapon or of taking cover. At the time I hadn't yet gotten my CCW; even if I had I have serious doubts that it would have occurred to me to do anything other than stand there gaping like a dead fish. Blame it on the adrenalin.

My husband and his buddy were in the garage behind our house, putting the last of the camping gear into the garage attic. My husband was in the attic and didn't hear a thing.

But his buddy Don heard the ruckus and came running. Don is not a small man, and I watched him grow several sizes right there in the street, sort of like a puffer fish does when threatened. He got right in the guy's face, nose to nose, and said calmly, "Okay, buddy, just settle down, take it easy, you don't want to do this, just calm down, take a deep breath ..."

What was I doing while Don was doing this? Still standing there gaping like a dead fish.

Julie had the 911 operator on the phone this whole time and had marched the kids upstairs to lie down in the loft in one of the bedrooms.

Don got the guy calmed down.

My husband Bob saw that Don had things mostly under control and went to get a notepad to take down the license plate number of the truck.

And I stood there gaping like a dead fish.

I'm glad we've chosen good friends. But I'd like to think that next time I'd do better than to rely on the people around me. I've been doing a lot of thinking about self defense and about tactical awareness. I've gotten a carry weapon and can handle it with reasonable accuracy. More than that, I'm trying to develop the mindset that would make me a threat to a bad guy rather than the other way around.

But I suspect I'd still just stand there gaping like a dead fish.

pax

"A sobering thought: what if, at this very moment, I am living up to my full potential?" -- Lily Tomlin

 

[Tony III]

pax,

BTW: a good babysitter is hard to find, Julie sounds like a parent's dream.

 

[FUD]

pax, I'm glad that everything worked out for you and I agree with Tony that a babysitter like that is worth keeping around -- if she can keep her head under these circumstances, she'll do equally well in other situations.

However, I have to respectfully disagree with Tony about using the van as cover and ordering the guy to get down on the ground. If he doesn't comply, will you shoot him?

Most states require a person to retreat and use a firearm only as a last resort. If you shoot him, the fire questions that will be asked is why you didn't get into the car and drive away or why didn't you go to your house and call the police. Additionally, it will be his word against your's as to what happened (the statements of the witnesses in the car could be discounted because they are 'on your side' and not considered independent) ... "I accidentally hit her car and when I came out to apoligize and she if she was alright, she was pissed off that I hit her car and started yelling and shooting at me."

You might not be found guilty of a crime but can be assured of a big legal mess to follow. Whereas, if there is physically evidence that he tried to force his way into your car, things might "look" a little bit better and his side of the story will hold less water.

 

[pax]

Btw, I would still like to hear anyone else's contribution. I'm trying to tamp this one down into my memory banks and maybe someday my reflexes will be less piscatory.

What if Don and Bob and Julie hadn't been there?

What would you have done and why?

pax

"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing." -- Theodore Roosevelt

[This message has been edited by pax (edited September 26, 2000).]