Rifles haven't changed in 100 years
- Thread starter Photon Guy
- Start date
dakota.potts
New member
As long as we're talking bolt action rifles, I agree. Self loading rifles and machine guns have come a long way since then
Not really, ... so a quick philosophical quibble, if I may.
Not saying it's yours, but that assertion has always been an academic fiction, and not a very persuasive fiction.
It's more akin to some community college professor's off-hand remark which, over time and through repetition, eventually attained the status of an urban legend. Your 401K, if maintained and added to, doubles every 7 years. The "human race as a whole" advances nothing. Knowledge - or at least beneficial and practical knowledge - only advances individually, when some creative thinker, inventor, craftsman, mathematician, industrialist, scientist, etc., comes up with a new idea, or a new application of an existing idea, and then pursues it to completion and success.
During the Dark & Middle Ages, the human race regressed culturally and scientifically for several centuries from what its "collective knowledge" had been during the Greek & Roman periods. Not until the Renaissance did the (re-)discovery and dissemination of science and invention (technology) lead to a restart of human progress.
History has many similar periods where progress and the discovery and development of knowledge went stagnant for a lot more than 7 years. When you actually study history, there's nothing magical about that number as it applies to human affairs.
Obambulate
New member
K-frame Smiths and 1892 lever actions. No need for big changes; they were great designs.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Don't mean to rain on your parade, but when the Winchester Model 1886 was introduced it was first chambered for 45-70, 45-90, and 40-82.
Photon Guy
New member
So have there been any recent innovations with rifles the way there have been with handguns? Just in 2014 they came out with a new version of the Ruger GP100 called the Match Champion which had improvements over the standard GP100 with weight, trigger control, and sighting and just last year Century Arms came out with the Canik which has some new innovations. Also, in recent years there was a company that came out with a different feeding system for semi automatic handguns which allows for greater barrel length while not increasing the overall length of the gun. Now, with rifles, theres the Winchester model 70 which has been in use since 1936, a really old rifle at least in terms of design and still widely used today.
Firearms are a very mature technology. I was told that anything patent able has been patented and is over a century old. All the basic principles, locking mechanisms, etc, were patented by 1900. All the operating principles were understood more than a century ago.
Our firearms are still made of steel, use fixed cartridges, primarily brass cartridges, using nitrocellulose based propellant. What has happened since 1900 is refinement, for example, the mechanisms that used greased cartridges and oilers went away so long ago the shooting community no longer remembers them. In debates with skeptics, they have shown they don't understand the principles. But these same skeptics are aware of fluted chambers, which replaced greased cartridges and oilers. Many mechanisms were tried and discarded over the last century. There has been a sort of convergence in semi automatic mechanisms, the vast majority on the market now use the Stoner rotating bolt in a gas mechanism. You just don't see the long recoil or short recoil high power rifle mechanisms that were in the pre WW2 marketplace.
New materials, specifically plastics, have replaced steel and aluminum, but I also consider that a refinement. Manufacturing techniques have gone in cycles. Pre WW2 firearms were wood and machined steel, very expensive and labor intensive to make. The Germans really pioneered stamping technology and many rifles, and pistols, were a combination of easy to make stamped parts. The SIG P220 is an example of a pistol originally designed to be made out of stampings, and yet, technology advanced to the point that computer driven machine tools replaced humans, and I have a SIG P220 which the major components are now machined.
I do believe that optical sights are going to replace irons, we are seeing firearms with irons and optical sights, in time, the irons will go away.
Until someone comes up with something other than nitrocellulose, the basic principles of our firearms are the same as they were in the 1880's.
Our firearms are still made of steel, use fixed cartridges, primarily brass cartridges, using nitrocellulose based propellant. What has happened since 1900 is refinement, for example, the mechanisms that used greased cartridges and oilers went away so long ago the shooting community no longer remembers them. In debates with skeptics, they have shown they don't understand the principles. But these same skeptics are aware of fluted chambers, which replaced greased cartridges and oilers. Many mechanisms were tried and discarded over the last century. There has been a sort of convergence in semi automatic mechanisms, the vast majority on the market now use the Stoner rotating bolt in a gas mechanism. You just don't see the long recoil or short recoil high power rifle mechanisms that were in the pre WW2 marketplace.
New materials, specifically plastics, have replaced steel and aluminum, but I also consider that a refinement. Manufacturing techniques have gone in cycles. Pre WW2 firearms were wood and machined steel, very expensive and labor intensive to make. The Germans really pioneered stamping technology and many rifles, and pistols, were a combination of easy to make stamped parts. The SIG P220 is an example of a pistol originally designed to be made out of stampings, and yet, technology advanced to the point that computer driven machine tools replaced humans, and I have a SIG P220 which the major components are now machined.
I do believe that optical sights are going to replace irons, we are seeing firearms with irons and optical sights, in time, the irons will go away.
Until someone comes up with something other than nitrocellulose, the basic principles of our firearms are the same as they were in the 1880's.
I have never seen such a load of crap. The land line hasn't changed? How could you change a wire that connects one piece of equipment to another? THE HARDWIRED EQUIPMENT ISN'T EVEN WIRE ANYMORE! The landline carries maybe 100X the data load now. Instead of being made out of copper, tar, felt, and lead, it's glass and plastic?
The pole? How can you change a stick? Oh, yes, let's replace them with metal or carbon fiber. Oh, wait a minute, we've replaced the stick with underground conduits. Is that enough change?
Never seen an electric guitar? Steel guitar? Grand piano? Carbon fiber violin? Amp? Wah wah pedal?
Oh, wait. Cymbals haven't changed.
Until we delete the entire history of music, we can't get rid of the flute, or change it in any significant way.
The guy had to find something to say to get hits. He got them. Who is still on tv every where in the world, Rodney of the royal Canadian mounted police, or the three stooges?
Everybody, meet curly's brother, dummy.
The pole? How can you change a stick? Oh, yes, let's replace them with metal or carbon fiber. Oh, wait a minute, we've replaced the stick with underground conduits. Is that enough change?
Never seen an electric guitar? Steel guitar? Grand piano? Carbon fiber violin? Amp? Wah wah pedal?
Oh, wait. Cymbals haven't changed.
Until we delete the entire history of music, we can't get rid of the flute, or change it in any significant way.
The guy had to find something to say to get hits. He got them. Who is still on tv every where in the world, Rodney of the royal Canadian mounted police, or the three stooges?
Everybody, meet curly's brother, dummy.
Gunplummer
New member
There have been new ideas introduced. Gunowners are a hard sell. Fiberglass shotgun barrels. Ammo with no case. The Tround. Steel cased ammo. I saw an auto pistol in a hock shop down south once that the slide went FORWARD during the cycle. Can't remember the name. Anybody? Lots of ideas came and went without catching on.
....and the "car" hasn't changed since ole Henry pushed out the first Model T if you consider a car as a four-wheeled machine with an internal combustion engine that gets you and your family from point A to point B.....
Don't get me wrong, IMHO Paul Mauser perfected the rifle and JM Browning perfected the semi-automatic handgun (Sam Colt perfected the revolver).....but I would NOT say they haven't changed in 100 years.....
Nunya
Don't get me wrong, IMHO Paul Mauser perfected the rifle and JM Browning perfected the semi-automatic handgun (Sam Colt perfected the revolver).....but I would NOT say they haven't changed in 100 years.....
Nunya
Have you noticed that electric guitars have not made acoustic guitars obsolete? I have never played a carbon fiber violin but I'm sure I can curdle milk with one the same as with a traditional violin. Have grand pianos really changed significantly in 100 years?
There are a lot of things we already had right over 100 years ago.
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Agreed. The Cubans may have perfected the cigar, the scotch, whisky, even the Asians, steel but every one of them have mostly lost the race in th 100 years since.
100years ago, we were still barely into the era of smokeless powder, and if we are being honest, even the .45 acp was still basing itself on the black powder colt round, the .44 magnum is son of the special, 357 as well,and comparing modern tungsten or bismuth waterfowl loads to the old brass bp loads (or, for that matter, front loaders), is ridiculous.
They are still center fire, use powder and pellets, but wth? The only genuine Similarity is that we still measure in dram equivalent and bore/gauge sizes.
Seriously, welded Damascus barrels?
Let's also compare the old bp round express rifles to the 460 weatheby. Sure, they were both center fire firearm rounds, but now, some of them don't even shoot lead!
100years ago, we were still barely into the era of smokeless powder, and if we are being honest, even the .45 acp was still basing itself on the black powder colt round, the .44 magnum is son of the special, 357 as well,and comparing modern tungsten or bismuth waterfowl loads to the old brass bp loads (or, for that matter, front loaders), is ridiculous.
They are still center fire, use powder and pellets, but wth? The only genuine Similarity is that we still measure in dram equivalent and bore/gauge sizes.
Seriously, welded Damascus barrels?
Let's also compare the old bp round express rifles to the 460 weatheby. Sure, they were both center fire firearm rounds, but now, some of them don't even shoot lead!
Photon Guy
New member
Ever hear of the Tesla? Its a car that's entirely electrical although probably not the best car for a prepper, considering the possibility of EMP strikes.
Like the Wankel engine, there are a lot of innovations that basically ended up being a great step sideways.
When I pick up a shotgun and it weighs less than 5 pounds, I put it right back on the shelf. I want my trap gun to weigh at least 8 pounds, why would I want a fiberglass barrel? Lightness is not always a good thing.
Didn't muzzle loaders shoot "caseless" ammo? I remember the gun that Daisy came out with that shot caseless ammo. What were the advantages again? Was the propellent better protected from contamination? Did the gun shoot faster? Was the ammo cheaper?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Baker was a late comer to electric cars (1899-1914). Electric cabs were touring London and New York in 1897 and before that, the first electric cars came about in the 1830s, though were not production models.
As noted, so many things have long histories in terms of basic concepts and sometimes in overall design.
In some ways I can agree with this, while we've made more complex designs that work faster and are easier to use, they're still based off of a small explosion launching a shaped chunk of metal at high speeds towards your target.
It seems kind of primitive to me, don't get me wrong though, I have plenty of respect for the advances we've made in firearms, but the same thing can be said of the internal combustion engine, technology is wringing out every drop of efficiency it can out of these controlled explosions, but it seems like we should be thinking about moving on to something else.
Maybe I just watch too much science fiction...
It seems kind of primitive to me, don't get me wrong though, I have plenty of respect for the advances we've made in firearms, but the same thing can be said of the internal combustion engine, technology is wringing out every drop of efficiency it can out of these controlled explosions, but it seems like we should be thinking about moving on to something else.
Maybe I just watch too much science fiction...