Resizing - FL, Partial, or Neck - early returns

[old roper]

I would guess since Redding is making seating plug for the Berger VLD bullets that Berger would use their dies.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/reddings-new-bullet-seating-micrometer-plugs-for-berger-vld-bullets/

 

[603Country]

More information...

Today I took all my loaded rounds out to the bench and put up all new targets. It was a cool day with little wind, and thankfully the barrel cooled quickly. I cleaned the bore prior to shooting and after every 10 rounds (not counting the fouler fired after each cleaning. I used the usual patches and a stiff plastic bore brush from Sinclair, and cleaning was done with Butch's Bore Shine and was done to approximately the same level of cleaning each time. I slowly fired 5 rounds, let the barrel cool to ambient temperature each time, fired 5 more and then cleaned. I fired all the partial resized cases first, followed by the neck sized cases, then the FL sized cases, and then shot the FL sized cases that were not sorted in any way, were unprepped and had random headstamps (Win, Hornady, Remington). All shooting was done on my 100 yard range and from my sturdy shooting bench. Front and rear bags were used.

Note that I don't yet have the Redding FL bushing die, and I finally decided that I needed to also look at the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die, so I ordered one of those too. It'll be at least a week before I have them and can load up and shoot more ammo.

And thank goodness for the low recoil 223, and again...I love that Timney trigger.

The results were:

Worst - Partial Resizing. Maybe with tapered cases I'd have had better results, but this case isn't tapered enough. The 'all of the bullets group' that BartB suggested showed a group of 1 1/4 inches by 1 1/2 inches. Just an overall loose group with little to recommend it. Since I shot this group first, I was thinking that maybe my memory of this load shooting pretty good was not a sober memory. But, I checked my notes and the previous good groups had been neck sized.

Slightly better - Neck Sizing. This gave a group of 1 inch by 3/4 inch. One flyer kept it from being 3/4 by 3/4, and half of the bullets were in one ragged and elongated hole.

Slightly better - FL Sizing. This gave a round group of 3/4 inches center to center, and there was maybe 1/4 of the bullets sharing holes with other bullets. It was a better looking group than the neck sized group.

And the random headstamp unprepped cases, shot a group of 1 inch by 1 1/2 inches, with the long measurement being horizontal. That was better than I actually expected, and doesn't include one called flyer. If included, that would have made the group 1 inch by 1.75 inches.

I'm thinking, based on what I saw today, that BartB's suggestion on using the Redding FL bushing die is probably the way to go. But, there's a chance that the Lee Collet Neck Die could do as well. I'm very interested in what I'll find from that comparison.

Maybe these experienced long range competition guys really know what they are talking about. I thought I knew what I was talking about, but now I'm questioning those old assumptions of mine. It's a learning experience and I hope this has been of interest to you so far. More data to follow.

And the caveat...this is just me and my gun and my bench and my reloading practices. I think this info should apply to most of us, but that's just an opinion and not necessarily a fact. And, just to say it, my rifle shoots the Nosler 40 gr BT a good bit better than it does the 65 grain GK, but I had started this with the Sierra GK and had a bunch of ammo loaded, so I continued with that bullet. This is about a comparison of resizing methods and not about the absolute smallest group I can shoot with this rifle.

 

[schmellba99]

Shmellba, my limitations of old shooter and sporter weight barrel might make this comparison meaningless, but I will continue with this. It interests me, and with the weather being so hot, I don't feel like hunting. And most of us are just hunters and shooters like me, and with sporter weight barrels. So we might learn something. And if I can't get answers with the 223, I might drag out the 220. That old gun will really shoot and was set up for me by a real pro. It's just so darn loud that my wife will be on my case well before I've shot all the rounds I'll need to shoot. So...I'm taking the wise path for now and using that 223.

I don't begrudge you one single bit - if anything it's a great excuse to get out and put some rounds down range. Hard to say anything negative about that at all.

I only made the comment because the ammo is only part of the equation - you can have the best and most consistent ammo ever produced, but if your action is out of true you are going to get less than stellar results. And considering some of the points of discussion here, I think about the realistic break even point for me personally.

It's good to be retired. A bad day at shooting beats a good day at work.

This man speaketh the truth.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Hm.

It's a little late, but I'd point out that alternating between groups would have better eliminated the variables.

 

[603Country]

Brian, I considered that, but figured if I cleaned at a regular interval and waited between groups until the rifle barrel had gone cold again (which I did), it would be a good test. And I did FL last, thinking that if I had fouled the barrel too much with all that shooting and possibly not enough cleaning, then it would impact the FL test the most. But, the FL group was still smallest. And today was nearly a perfect day to shoot. Minimal breeze and cool.

And I ordered that Lee die today because you, and others probably, would like that as part of the test. And, as with all the other comparing I've been doing, the Lee die needs to be part of my testing. I've enjoyed this, though it hasn't shown the results I expected to see. I burned a lot of ammo today, and thank goodness it wasn't my firm kicking 270.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I look forward to hearing your results and, just in case I come across wrong, I'm not trying to be critical, just offering suggestions. I appreciate the effort, time and money you're putting into this.

 

[tobnpr]

Again, one more time, I have a rifle that shoots one hole groups, I had another rifle that shoot patterns (like a shot gun), the rifle that shot patterns was a Winchester Model 70 chambered to 300 Win Mag, I shot the same ammo in both rifles, one more time, one shot one hole groups, the Winchester shot patterns,

I am really trying to understand the point you are trying to make....

You have a rifle that shoots birdshot groups, and another, of a different make, shoots one hole? And you automatically attribute it the chamber/case length? I must be missing your point, because it could be innumerable other things including those as obvious as a crap barrel, or out-of-true action... or that rifle just doesn't like that ammo. Are you saying that all rifles should shoot the same ammo with identical accuracy? We all know chambers vary, and are still within SAAMI specs. So?

Many long-range precision shooter use a chamber gauge in the interest of not trimming their brass until it is necessary. Why trim brass if you've still got throat clearance, regardless of SAAMI spec.

Please re-state your point more clearly for me if you don't mind...guess I'm having a senior moment (pre-senior)....

 

[1stmar]

603country any chance you can post pics of the groups?

 

[603Country]

1stMar, let me finish all the shooting and testing, and then I might do it. I still have the Lee collet neck sizing die and the Redding FL bushing die to use to load ammo for testing. If I stopped the test right now, without trying those dies, the best (smallest) overall group goes to the Redding FL sizing (non-bushing) die. BUT the neck sized group, although somewhat bigger horizontally, had more bullets in the middle of the group in one ragged and elongated hole. Very interesting. I wish I knew what that meant. If it means that my NK sizing die is pulling the necks slightly off line on some of the cases, then maybe the Lee collet die is going to alllow me to shoot really great groups. But, so far nothing has turned out like I had expected, so who knows what we'll see from those dies. I do expect and hope for slightly smaller groups, but realistically this is an off the shelf Ruger Hawkeye stainless with a Timney trigger and a Hogue stock with the aluminum bedding channel and a Leupold 6x18 VX2 scope. No way it's gonna put all the rounds in one hole, but if the 3/4 inch group drops to 1/2 inch I'd be thrilled - but I just can't really see that happening. But stay tuned.

 

[1stmar]

Appreciate you doing this I plan to do a similar test though not as thorough as yours, I have lee collet dies as well as rcbs and redding fl dies. Bart b has got me thinking as well. Runout is always lower for me when using the lee, but Bart has pointed out neck centering on the shoulder is better with fl dies. I have a McMillan stock coming for my 06 , it has a hart barrel and is as close to a highly tuned rifle as I'm going to get, so no excuses other then, me weather and my loads.

I noticed the one flyer kept you second group from being equal to the fl group, and the group had more rounds touching.. Hate to ask, but how did that one shot feel? Possible it was wind?

 

[603Country]

1stMar, I just can't remember, but there wasn't much wind. It was really a great day for shooting. I'll be out in the workshop again this morning and I'll look at the groups again and see what notes I had made. One thing that I haven't mentioned is that I started the shooting comparison, stopped, made more bullets and started again. The results I've talked about were from the second pass. On my first pass, one of the weak points in this test (my shooting) gave me some problems. I was doing some outright crappy shooting, so I stopped, rearranged the bags, got more targets up, did a little dry firing, and restarted. I think I was rushing things, and that was exactly the wrong thing to do. Once I got past that, I felt that except for one or maybe two shots, I did everything as well as I could and that the comparisons between groups were therefore fair. After all the yapping I've done about doing this case sizing comparison, I admit that I got a little worried about whether or not the rifle and I were up to the challenge. I was not going to report any data unless I had confidence in it. Once past that shaky start, all has gone well.

I'm really itching to get my hands on the Lee collet and Redding bushing FL dies and do some more shooting.

 

[1stmar]

Thanks 603country, can't wait to hear the next results...

 

[old roper]

603Country, One of the main reason for using bushing die here it is from Redding site.

A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with most Type S - Bushing Dies except 17 and 20 Cal. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity.


You may or may not see any improvement in accuracy adjusting neck tension in a factory chamber but you may want to try that also.

What I do on all my new cases is use Sinclair expander mandrel in whatever cal I'm loading then use bushing die set neck tension. I also mike neck thickness after few firing that can change effect bushing size also.

Always fun to try things

 

[1stmar]

603country any update since receiving the collet die?

 

[Hosted]

+1 603, any updates? I'm going to be trying something similar to this when we don't have a bunch of snow and temps are above freezing.

 

[603Country]

Sorry for not seeing your questions till now. I got both dies (gave em to myself for Christmas), but then my grandkids gave me a non-traditional Christmas present. They gave me the nastiest, meanest chest cold I can ever remember. I'm still struggling with it, and I'm feeling pretty darn puny, and thank goodness I have plenty of football to watch. I'm so weak that my wife had to help me pull kleenex out of the box the other day, and it took me 3 tries to tear toilet paper. So anyway, it'll be another week or so before I really feel up to doing all the loading and shooting. And I've made a few planned changes to the testing. I'll shoot 15 round groups (maybe 20 rounds), but I'll use the 40 grain Nosler BT instead of the 65 gr Sierra GK. The Nosler shoots a bit better and I have a whole lot of them. I don't plan to shoot the mixed headstamp/non-prepped cases again, since I think I learned what I needed to know, in that it shoots pretty good, but not as good as the fully prepped and sorted cases. And I'm going to skip the partial resizing section of the test, because the 223 case (in my hands and in my experience) doesn't partial resize well because the case isn't tapered enough and partial resizing causes the shoulder to be pushed out. So, unless someone talks me into doing more than the following, here's the plan: Full Length sizing with a Redding non-bushing die; neck sizing with a Redding standard neck sizing die; neck sizing with a Lee Collet die; and FL sizing with a Redding full length bushing die. Now all I'll need is cool weather with low wind speed. And I'll need to quit coughing before I get to shooting. That'll throw a few fliers, for sure.

Since I haven't started all the loading and testing yet, if anyone has any reasonable suggestions about changes to my plan, please feel free to speak up. I'm doing this for me, but I might as well take the time and effort to make the results worthwhile and believable to you guys too.

Happy New Year.

 

[reynolds357]

Ideally what you want is a full length bushing die manufactured to your chamber, not SAAMI spec. My last 1000 yd rifle came with a set of dies custom made for that chamber. In essence, it is a full length sizing die that is doing nothing but neck sizing. When using off the shelf dies, I have seen very little (if any) accuracy gained by neck sizing, and I have seen a lot of reliability loss due to neck sizing.

 

[Bart B.]

Reynolds, if your die only sizes the neck, regardless of what it's called, it's a neck only sizing die. Full length sizing dies reduce body diameters and also move the fired case shoulder back a bit when used properly. Sizing dies with their body dimensions the same as the chamber and don't touch the fired case body or shoulder are made by people who do not understand how a bottleneck case headspacing on its shoulder fits the chamber and why a fired case's body has to be held rigid in place while the neck's sized down to keep the case neck well centered on the case shoulder if best accuracy is the objective. You are only neck sizing your cases with that die. How it differs from other neck sizing dies is not known to me.

If that die sizes cases that produce better accuracy than some other neck only sizing die, there's some other reason that has nothing to do with the fact that its body dimensions are the same as the chamber body the fired cases come out of. Note that fired cases are a thousandths or so smaller than the chamber they come out of, so their body and shoulder will never touch your custom die's body nor shoulder; it's just another version of a neck only sizing die.

Virtually all the benchresters gave up on neck only sizing some years ago and have switched over to the full length sizing dies with bushings of the correct diameter for their case necks. Such dies keep the case neck well centered on the case shoulder but size the case body and neck down very little and set the fired case sholder back a thousandth or so. Sierra Bullets was probably the first place where enough proper tests were made with various sizing dies and techniques (including all sorts of neck only sizing dies) back in the 1950's. They've been using off the shelf commercial full length sizing dies ever since; nothing else sized cases good enough dimension wise to shoot their bullets into the smallest test groups. Nowadays, they use Redding full length bushing dies or standard full length sizing dies on their fired cases to resize them. Those dies work the same way and use the same bushings as the ones made by RCBS.

Therefore, 603country, I highly discourage your from coveting a die whose body dimensions equal your chamber in that area. Get a full length bushing die from RCBS or Reddingf then learn how to set it up correctly in your press. Then you'll be sizing fired cases the best way for best accuracy.

 

[603Country]

As stated above, I now have the Redding FL bushing die (and the Lee Collet Die). Never having used either one of them before, I am expecting to have to do some drastic things (read the instructions) to use them properly.

 

[reynolds357]

The custom Reddings seem to work on that rifle. They are full length sizing dies. They just do not size to Saami spec for full length size. They size a miniscule amount smaller than an exact copy of the chamber. They size slightly sticky. A neck sizer sizes very sticky after a few rounds or reloading. Running much higher pressure than I would run in my 100/200 yard rifle.