Resizing - FL, NK, Lee Collet, FL bushing - group size

[603Country]

BartB, I do understand what you are pointing out, and I thank you for the information. The more rounds I shoot, the more I'll learn about the bullet/powder combination. However, in the case of the shooting I've just done, when one combo shot into one hole and the other combo's were nowhere close to that performance, I'm just going to take a mental leap and say to myself that the one-holer is what I want to use as my primary load (die, powder, bullet). If the answer wasn't so obvious (to me anyway), I'd do a lot more shooting before declaring a winner.

And, if truth be told, I will be doing more shooting with various dies. That Redding FL bushing die should have done better. You had convinced me that die was the way to go, and the only path to best accuracy. The results did not prove that out. You are obviously a knowledgable fellow with much shooting experience, so your opinion is to be trusted. Therefore, it must be that I didn't utilize all the potential from that die. I'll try it some more when I get my backordered Lapua brass (whenever that'll be). For now though, the Lee Collet Die will be my go-to sizing die. And I'll order one for my 260 Remington, where accuracy can be spotty.

The good news for me is that I can shoot till I get carpal tunnel syndrome in my trigger finger. I'm retired, with my own shooting range. Got plenty of bullets and primers. Could sure use those new cases though.

And let me mention that although I don't always agree with everything you say, I do recognize that you have much experience and knowledge. I listen...and I have learned a few things from you. And...also from FGuffey. And from Unclenick and a few of the rest of ya'll. The combined knowledge pool on this forum is huge.

 

[Bart B.]

603 country, what combo shot all into one hole? I don't remember that.

If you're referring to:

The most interesting group was from the Lee Collet die. Of the 15 rounds, 9 went into one big hole. The other 6 were spaced out around the big ragged hole. So the full group was bigger than the smallest group of the day (Redding FL Die), but the Lee Collet die let me put 9 bullets in one hole.

. . .that's not all shots in one hole. 9 were clustered quite well but 6 were outliers that have to be included for that load's performance.

Had the cluster of 9 all been shot in a row, they might mean something good. Otherwise, I don't think it's a good idea to use them alone.

But you're making pretty good effort to find out what's best.

 

[603Country]

In post 11, I wondered to myself if I used that Lee die and I shot a 5 round group from a cold clean barrel, would it group into one big hole. I did load em up, and in post 15 I said that 5 rounds from the Lee Collet Die did in fact shoot into one enlarged hole. I can't be sure of all the why's and wherefore's of them going into one hole, but it may have been due to Unclenick's mention (and I can't remember the exact words) that with use of the Lee die you could accidentally vary neck tension if you didn't resize them all the same way. In fact, I hadn't consistently resized all of the cases of the 15 shot group where 9 went into one hole, and I remembered that. So for the 5 shot group, I was particularly careful to resize the neck of each case with 3 strokes of the ram handle and the case turned about 1/3 of the way round for each stroke. And...5 in one ragged hole. I also loaded up 5 rounds with the FL die and the Bushing die (both with less shoulder setback), and the group from the bushing die was, as seen in the larger test, in last place.

I'm gettin way more consistency from that Lee die, and all I can assume right now is that it's due to concentricity. I can't measure that yet, since Sinclair hasn't sent me my measurement tool.

This has been a lot of work just to find out what die to use for ammo to plink crows in the front pasture, but it has been very interesting. I'm just a retired engineer with time on his hands that wants to know what ammo components and prep result in the most accurate ammo. Might as well. I shoot a lot, and what's the point of shooting inaccurate ammo. And I like impressing friends and neighbors. I tell em "here, shoot this one", and they get tiny groups and are amazed. I just smile. So when you and Unclenick (and FGuffey) are talking, I'm listening.

 

[603Country]

One more bit of information. Just to be absolutely sure about what I said yesterday, and because I have a lot of ammo to reload - and I might as well get it right the first time, I did more shooting. About 100 more rounds. As far as the Redding Type S FL Bushing Die, I found my problem. I started seating the bullets out closer to the lands and the groups tightened right up. After a remeasure of distance from bolt face to lands, it turns out that I hadn't been loading out as far as I had thought I was. So now I'd move the Bushing die into second place. I retested the standard FL die again, and it shot pretty good, and probably good enough to suit most folks. The standard Neck Die was just terrible, and just a month ago I thought it was the way to go. But still, the Lee Collet Die gives me the best 5 shot groups. No denying that. And it's funny, but with the Lee Collet Die it's not good (for my rifle) to load out close to the lands. I got best accuracy with what the Lyman 49th shows as an OAL of 2.215 inches for that cartridge and that bullet.

And perhaps worthy of mention is that the highly prepped Nosler cases gave me better grouping than did the highly prepped Winchester cases.

Whew...it's finally over and I believe in what I've found. Now to load up a 100 rounds or so. Again, thanks for listening.

 

[Bart B.]

603, try a bushing one size larger in the die so there'll be less neck tension; too much neck tension will hurt accuracy and sometimes ends up bending the case neck at its junction with the shoulder. One that's .001" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter may make the most accurate ammo.

Then seat bullets out to where the just barely set back a few thousandths when chambered. That'll center them very well and help uniform startup resistance so velocity will be more consistant.

Good to see you fixed some mistakes. There's a few dozen I've made over the years. Finding and fixing 'em makes one smarter. . .if we remember them.

 

[603Country]

Bart, I have one tighter bushing, but not one looser. You may have a good point, because there is a very large difference in effort required to seat bullets in cases sized in the various dies. The NK die gave the most resistance, and the worst accuracy. The std FL die was next in resistance and had decent accuracy. The Lee had least resistance of all, but only slightly less than that of the Bushing Die. You could feel a difference between the two. After a couple hundred rounds reloaded and shot, I have developed quite a feel for comparative resistance in bullet seating. I need to place an order with Sinclair, and bushings are cheap. I'll get the looser one and see if it makes a diff.

 

[Bart B.]

Yea team!!!!

Easy bullet seating is a good sign accurate ammo's in the makin'. If one cannot seat bullets easy using a chamber-type hand tool such as Wilson's, the sized case necks are way too tiny in mouth diameter.

 

[603Country]

Bart, thanks for your input and insight on this thread and several others. You have caused me to rethink many of my reloading/accuracy beliefs, which has caused me to try new things. I'm a better reloader with better ammo now, and I think that most of the credit goes to you. You have occasionally been a pain in the b***, but always a knowledgable pain.

 

[Bart B.]

603, thanks for your remarks.

I've oft time been called a pain in the butt. One good friend years ago often called my commenting on accurate shooting a "gamo glob shot." Large vaccinations, like antibiotics, vitamins, gamma globulin, etc. are injected deep into the muscle and, therefore, must be given in the buttock. Difficult to put up with when received, but worth the discomfort in the long run.

 

[603Country]

That's funny. Of the many memories I have of the USMC, one of the funny little things that seem to stick in my mind is that GG shot they gave me in boot camp. The guy in line ahead of me had the needle snapped off in his butt. The Corpsman took pliers and pulled out the needle and then gave him the shot with a fresh needle. Then it was my turn, and the Corpsman said "relax". Sure...