Reloading Liability for Friends and Family
- Thread starter akinswi
- Start date
Its been a few years since I loaded for anyone anf then it was for a son n law.He'd bought one of the then new Winchester M70 Featherweights in .300 WSM and asked me to make up some ammo for him. Someone where he works gave him their pet load and he wanted to go with that. I said no. I also told him that I would need his rifle to do the work. He brought the rifle, a can of the friend's suggested powder (IMR4831 BYW) and primers and bullet plus 100 rounds of once fired factory. Being the trusting sort I bought a box of the same ammo and shot it in the rifle This way I knew for sure it was once fired factory brass. Well I worked up to the suggested load and it appeared to be OK so I bought enough powder and bullets to load all 119 rounds of brass. Used one as a dummy when making more reloads.
I called him and he came to get his loads and the die set I had him buy with the sizing die loosened up so it would have to be adjusted again for a different press.
Sure enough he shot up every round and called and asked if I'd load them again. I said no. Told him he could get the components, come down and load them himself. When he came dow, I showed him how to properly set up the sizing die, adjust the seating die and use the powder measure. Then, under my supervision, he loaded his own ammo. Now he loads for about 5 different cartridges all by himself.
I've known him since he was a 17 year old kid dating my stepdaughter. They tied the knot but it didn't last. No matter as I taught him everything he knows about hunting way back when and we've been good friends ever since.
Paul B.
I called him and he came to get his loads and the die set I had him buy with the sizing die loosened up so it would have to be adjusted again for a different press.
Sure enough he shot up every round and called and asked if I'd load them again. I said no. Told him he could get the components, come down and load them himself. When he came dow, I showed him how to properly set up the sizing die, adjust the seating die and use the powder measure. Then, under my supervision, he loaded his own ammo. Now he loads for about 5 different cartridges all by himself.
I've known him since he was a 17 year old kid dating my stepdaughter. They tied the knot but it didn't last. No matter as I taught him everything he knows about hunting way back when and we've been good friends ever since.
Paul B.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Until they sue you for damages if something goes wrong. The courts are full of friends suing each other. Or, maybe your friend didn't sue you, but their insurance company did sue you for reimbursement. That's right, even if your bestest buddy didn't sue you himself, but was injured by your reloads, his insurance company could go after you. Look up subrogation.
stagpanther
New member
Interesting topic--does anyone actually know of a case where an individual was successfully sued for providing a reload to someone?
Late to the thread but I found an old bookmark - that still works - to the website of a lawyer who says he does NFA trusts and knows something about ATF regulations. I do not claim he is correct or trustworthy, just that I stumbled on his website some time a go and bookmarked it.
The website is https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-an-ffl-if-all-i-am-going-to-do-is-manufacture-and-sell-cast-bullets/
There, he claims that one needs an FFL to even sell cast bullets - no case, powder, primer, not assembled ammunition, just cast lead bullets, because according to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 paragraph 17, which says:
Now, I'm certainly not well-versed in this - in fact I know next to nothing - but if cast bullets are indeed 'ammunition' and one needs an FFl to cast and sell them, the idea of loading actual loaded rounds for someone seems like a bottomless pit of risk.
The website is https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-an-ffl-if-all-i-am-going-to-do-is-manufacture-and-sell-cast-bullets/
There, he claims that one needs an FFL to even sell cast bullets - no case, powder, primer, not assembled ammunition, just cast lead bullets, because according to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 paragraph 17, which says:
Now, I'm certainly not well-versed in this - in fact I know next to nothing - but if cast bullets are indeed 'ammunition' and one needs an FFl to cast and sell them, the idea of loading actual loaded rounds for someone seems like a bottomless pit of risk.
Marco Califo
New member
If asked, I say "Last time the guy's gun blew up and he lost an eye. Still won't talk to me."
No one has asked me again after I tell them that.
No one has asked me again after I tell them that.
Last edited:
What an absolute mess....
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need...g-to-do-is-manufacture-and-sell-cast-bullets/
The particulars for the average citizen, however, would again center on that slimy definition of "....‘engaged in the business...." which seems to be a slippery slope of political convenience these days.
Did I mention the word..
mess
noun
1. a dirty or untidy state of things or of a place.
"she made a mess of the kitchen"
Similar:
untidiness, disorder, disarray, clutter, heap, shambles, litter, tangle, jumble
muddle, mishmash, chaos, confusion, disorganization, turmoil, muck, fright
sight, dog's breakfast [I particularly like that one ]
2. a situation or state of affairs that is confused or full of difficulties.
"the economy is still in a terrible mess"
Similar:
plight, predicament, emergency, tight spot, tight corner, difficulty, straits
trouble, quandary, dilemma, problem, muddle,
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need...g-to-do-is-manufacture-and-sell-cast-bullets/
The particulars for the average citizen, however, would again center on that slimy definition of "....‘engaged in the business...." which seems to be a slippery slope of political convenience these days.
Did I mention the word..
mess
noun
1. a dirty or untidy state of things or of a place.
"she made a mess of the kitchen"
Similar:
untidiness, disorder, disarray, clutter, heap, shambles, litter, tangle, jumble
muddle, mishmash, chaos, confusion, disorganization, turmoil, muck, fright
sight, dog's breakfast [I particularly like that one
]2. a situation or state of affairs that is confused or full of difficulties.
"the economy is still in a terrible mess"
Similar:
plight, predicament, emergency, tight spot, tight corner, difficulty, straits
trouble, quandary, dilemma, problem, muddle,
FrankenMauser
New member
This is correct.
Love the ATF. Love them. No one else does.
A single line of text, without context isn't good for much but misleading people, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to find the context in some paper written by someone at/from Cornell. He may actually be correct, or he may be passing off his opinion or interpretation as fact. I don't see where it matters much.
We aren't talking about some home caster who is going to be essentially ignored but people who are doing it as a business.
Consider, for a moment, when you make and sell ANYTHING in this country, AS A BUSINESS, you are required to obtain certain licenses from various levels of govt, and pay taxes, along with other things, just to legally do business.
This line, without context is worthless to any discussion, as it is simply a definition, used in what law? Used HOW??? there is no context about how the term "ammunition" is used only what is covered under that term in some document.
We aren't talking about some home caster who is going to be essentially ignored but people who are doing it as a business.
Consider, for a moment, when you make and sell ANYTHING in this country, AS A BUSINESS, you are required to obtain certain licenses from various levels of govt, and pay taxes, along with other things, just to legally do business.
This line, without context is worthless to any discussion, as it is simply a definition, used in what law? Used HOW??? there is no context about how the term "ammunition" is used only what is covered under that term in some document.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Not real likely as it would be a low frequency event, very low. Little chance such a suit would make the news if it didn't involve a significant company or notable individual, just like 1000s of other civil lawsuits don't make the news.
oldmanFCSA
New member
I teach reloading for free, and I mean free. As I teach I do each step myself explaining the why of each step, then they do each step explaining back to me why. Then I ask WHY? Then I ask WHY? Then I ask WHY? I ask until they can't answer anymore. then tell them whether they are correct or not. (Sometimes I learn from them.) Then on to the next step and repeat. When we get to powder charges, a minimum of 5 reloading manuals are referenced. And I explain why different charges are listed for same cartridge/bullet weight. Then on to bullet selection, seating depth, when to crimp or not, and inspection of loaded round. Then documentation to a specific firearm which they must bring to class.
When I'm done with initial class, they are somewhat experienced reloaders as I have explained stuff that took years of reloading learning myself to them.
Remember, I teach reloading for free.
Max size of each reloading class is 2. I repeat 2.
My specialty is reloading for accuracy for the 50BMG cartridge. I've had students from Tucson fly in for instruction (I'm in northern Wisconsin.) When powder charges potentially exceed 250 grains, SAFETY must be stressed and hammered in.
But I accept donations to my heating fund.
When I'm done with initial class, they are somewhat experienced reloaders as I have explained stuff that took years of reloading learning myself to them.
Remember, I teach reloading for free.
Max size of each reloading class is 2. I repeat 2.
My specialty is reloading for accuracy for the 50BMG cartridge. I've had students from Tucson fly in for instruction (I'm in northern Wisconsin.) When powder charges potentially exceed 250 grains, SAFETY must be stressed and hammered in.
But I accept donations to my heating fund.
bacardisteve
New member
I have assisted friends in loading their own ammo on my equipment.
Recycled bullet
New member
I think most people asking me about ammunition are really only wanting a source for free ammunition. I offer to teach freely to many people I may meet offering to share my loading books components tools and experience and most of all time and all they would have to do is ask.
I taught two women how to hand load 38 special target loads. 100% everyone else lost all interest once there was obviously going to be some easy work involved and some required reading leading to learning on their part. That is ok too.
What is your favorite 50 BMG powder? That sounds so much fun to hand load for that cartridge.Have you shot cast bullets in 50 BMG?
I taught two women how to hand load 38 special target loads. 100% everyone else lost all interest once there was obviously going to be some easy work involved and some required reading leading to learning on their part. That is ok too.
What is your favorite 50 BMG powder? That sounds so much fun to hand load for that cartridge.Have you shot cast bullets in 50 BMG?
oldmanFCSA
New member
Favorite 50BMG powder:
Was Alliant Reloder-50 but at 394+$ for 8 pounds
Is NOW V.V. 20N29 at $297 for 8 pounds
I've used both for FCSA Match competitions with 20N29 permitting 4" 5-shot groups at 1000 yards IF I do my part. 20N29 gives me great velocities out of my 38" SS K&P barrel shooting 808 brass solids coated with WS2.
Velocities I shoot are too high for cast bullets.
Was Alliant Reloder-50 but at 394+$ for 8 pounds
Is NOW V.V. 20N29 at $297 for 8 pounds
I've used both for FCSA Match competitions with 20N29 permitting 4" 5-shot groups at 1000 yards IF I do my part. 20N29 gives me great velocities out of my 38" SS K&P barrel shooting 808 brass solids coated with WS2.
Velocities I shoot are too high for cast bullets.
Crunchy Frog
New member
Never load ammo for others and never give people ammo that you loaded.
Here’s one possible scenario. Generous John gives some handloaded ammo to Lazy Larry who is always happy to mooch. The ammo is fine. Later Larry buys some crappy reloads at a gun show. Larry’s gun blows up and he is injured. Larry’s lawyer asks where he got the ammo. Larry: “John gave me some.” John is sued. Can John prove that the bad round did not come from his bench?
No thank you.
Here’s one possible scenario. Generous John gives some handloaded ammo to Lazy Larry who is always happy to mooch. The ammo is fine. Later Larry buys some crappy reloads at a gun show. Larry’s gun blows up and he is injured. Larry’s lawyer asks where he got the ammo. Larry: “John gave me some.” John is sued. Can John prove that the bad round did not come from his bench?
No thank you.
Moochers
That's all they are for the most part. Wow just how cheap can you make your ammo? That's so cool. They are not interested in learning or actually doing anything that might resemble work in their pursuit of cheap (free) ammo.
Why would I put my finances at risk for such an individual?
Moochers gonna mooch, and attractive ladies can be expert moochers.
That's all they are for the most part. Wow just how cheap can you make your ammo? That's so cool. They are not interested in learning or actually doing anything that might resemble work in their pursuit of cheap (free) ammo.
Why would I put my finances at risk for such an individual?
Moochers gonna mooch, and attractive ladies can be expert moochers.