Range Report: Sig P365

Saturday I bought a new Sig P365 for evaluation as an EDC piece to replace my Springfield XDs .45. I got a "hot off the production line" 3rd generation model that had, in fact, been manufactured on June 7. It's just slightly smaller than my XDs, but is considerably lighter and more comfortable to hold.

Today, I cleaned it, applied a light coat of Slide Glide to the rails, and took it to the range. I fired a total of 62 rounds; one magazine of 115-gr Sig 365 JHPs, the second 10-rd magazine with Sig 124-gr JHPs then the 12-round magazine of Winchester White Box 115-gr FMJs. I reloaded all the magazines (with my last 10 rounds in the 12-rounder) and fired again on two targets.

The targets are nothing to brag about, but my old eyes aren't seeing the sights as sharply as they once did; however they would certainly have all been in or near center of body mass which is what a defensive pistol is all about. It will soon wear a green laser, as my XDs currently does. The Sig shoots a bit low (perhaps 2 inches at 21 feet).

Reliability: On the first shot, I felt a brief hesitation as the slide returned fully to battery (a ka-chunk) that was quick enough that it wouldn't have caused me to have to delay a second shot in a rapid fire string. After that, there were no issues whatsoever. The pistol performed perfectly.

Shootability: The recoil felt a bit lighter than my XDs .45 (duh) and was quite manageable, although the 124-gr loads were noticeably stiffer than the 115s (again, duh).

While policing up my brass, one of the range instructors picked up a couple for me, and remarked that the Sigs are still dragging the firing pin. He stated that he would never carry one for personal defense, because the firing pin might break in the middle of a gunfight. I did notice the firing pin drag on the primers, but would have thought nothing of it had he not mentioned it. I've seen similar drag marks on other autoloaders, but have never heard of firing pins breaking as a result.

I'm quite pleased with the little beast, and will begin using it as my edc, once I run a couple hundred more rounds through it and mount a laser on it. :cool:
 
How do you identify it is a 3rd Generation pistol?
According to the dealer, 3d Gen P365s come in a grey box with rounded corners, as opposed to a black box with square corners. Don't know that he's correct (Why would they change boxes?), but I'm confident that I have the latest generation, since mine was manufactured less than a month ago! :cool:
 

pblanc

New member
On another forum a member posted a thread with a link to a poll of P365 owners asking whether or not they had experienced any reliability issues with their pistols.

A number of issues were reported including failure of slide lock on empty magazines (which might of course be a user-induced issue), other magazine issues, excessive barrel peening, failures of extraction and/or ejection, and failures to return to battery. Some of these issues may have been adequately addressed by SIG Sauer which redesigned the recoil spring assembly of the pistol and made a sizable number of other "rolling changes" since the original release.

But the issues of greatest concern were the two failures that occurred without prior warning, sometimes after substantial round counts, and immediately took the pistol out of action, for which no remedial measures were available. These were broken strikers and broken or dislodged trigger bar springs which resulted in a dead trigger.

In the poll previously mentioned, there were 178 P365 owners who responded. Of these, 15 reported broken strikers (8.43% of respondents) and 9 reported dead triggers (4.49% of respondents) for a critical failure rate of almost 13% of those P365 owners who participated in the poll. Several striker breakages occurred after having shot 500 rounds and one occurred after 1900 rounds. Several trigger bar malfunctions occurred after round counts of 450-500 rounds. Those who watched the Military Arms Channel review video for the P365 posted on youtube might recall that Tim's pistol suffered a dead trigger after shooting nearly 900 rounds. That is another trigger spring failure not included in the above-mentioned poll results.

SIG has "fessed up" that pistols produced between February and April of this year inclusive had a batch of MIM strikers installed that may have been out of spec predisposing to failure. But they have not widely disseminated this info or issued a recall or "voluntary upgrade" as they did for the P320. It is known that SIG has redesigned the striker at least twice now since the initial release. And there is some suggestion that SIG may be changing the design or installation of the trigger bar spring. But in the poll mentioned, two pistols manufactured in the last half of May suffered critical failures, one a broken striker and one a dead trigger. So it is hard to be confident that these issues have been adequately addressed at this time.

What is more, there is one P365 owner who has documented that his pistol suffered a broken striker twice and one who experienced a dead trigger twice. Both of these pistols were returned to SIG for repair and had exactly the same failure later after they were returned.

Take away from this information what you will. For myself, I would not at present select the P365 for self-defense use although I may choose to do so in the future if I become confident that SIG has satisfactorily addressed these issues.
 

indie_rocker

New member
Weren't these pistols launched like a year ago? They are already on the "3rd generation?" What a disaster. I understand that there are always manufacturing issues with any new product, but Sig really struggles to get a new pistol out anymore.
 

gnystrom

New member
Weren't these pistols launched like a year ago? They are already on the "3rd generation?" What a disaster. I understand that there are always manufacturing issues with any new product, but Sig really struggles to get a new pistol out anymore.

1. They weren't launched a year ago. Full production and delivery sometime
in late Feb. 2018
2. There really is no 3rd generation of this pistol.
3. Disaster??? Most gun manufacturers would love to have a "disaster" like
the P365. Sig must have a backorder list a mile long.
4. Glock, Kimber, S&W, Springfield, Remington, and Ruger just to name a
few, all have all had recalls with the introduction of a new firearm.

For those what wish to avoid a "disaster", don't buy a recently introduced firearm from any manufacturer for a year or two. That allows those among us that want a second one, the possibility of getting it that much sooner.
 
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In the poll previously mentioned, there were 178 P365 owners who responded. Of these, 15 reported broken strikers (8.43% of respondents) and 9 reported dead triggers (4.49% of respondents) for a critical failure rate of almost 13% of those P365 owners who participated in the poll.
That's a catastrophic failure rate! :eek: Hell, even 1% would be troublesome! OTOH, mechanical things fail. I had my Smith & Wesson Model 60 break it's cylinder latch back in the day, jamming the piece to the extent that I had to take it home from the range and disassemble it to unload it. Good thing it didn't happen two rounds into a three-round gunfight! Carried it as my main defensive piece for years afterwards, and would trust my life to it today.

FWIW, that's why I always carry a Kershaw locking folder. Ya just never know! :rolleyes:
 

pblanc

New member
I agree that a 13% rate of critical failures is catastrophic. Keep in mind also that there are probably a considerable number of P365 pistols out there that have not had more than 150 rounds shot through them. And since some of these failures are occurring after anywhere from 300-1900 rounds, some of the respondents whose pistols have thus far been trouble free may experience failures in the future.

Having said that, it may be that the sample represented by those who responded to the poll may not be representative of P365 owners in general. Some have suggested that owners of pistols that have caused trouble are more likely to seek out forums for advice, and that an owner of a problem pistol is more likely to respond to such a poll than an owner of a pistol that has been trouble free. That could be so. But the hard core SIG fans very far outweigh the SIG skeptics on that particular forum, and so far as I know, the vast majority of those who participated in the poll did so because they saw the link on the forum post.

The selection bias would have to be very heavily slanted toward owners of problem pistols in that poll to render the critical failure rate acceptable in my view. Even a bias of 1:10 towards owners of problem pistols would still result in a critical failure rate of 1.3%
 

Cosmodragoon

New member
Military Arms Channel has a couple videos up documenting the issues that he's experienced with two different P365's.

During the course of a review discussing the firing pin drag problem, he had a P365 fail on him. (See linked video below.) I know the OP here mentions that he has seen this on other firearms but has anyone seen it exactly like this? The fact that the P365 does this to primers and there are so many reports of failures suggests an inherent design flaw. I'm interested in the concept but I'd like to see Sig get things figured out first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYCCQjx0M8M

BTW, if the OP has an updated version of this gun, could he post some pictures of the primers on spent casings? I'm just curious to see what they look like and if there has been any improvement since MAC took a look.
 
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Nakanokalronin

New member
Looking at when the problems start in these pistols, I'd put no less than 1,000 through it and then a detail inspection of all parts before carrying it. re
 

pblanc

New member
I might point out that Tim in his MAC video review of the P365 did mention the primer drag issue at length and his concern that it might lead to metal fatigue and eventual breakage of the striker tip. But ironically when his pistol failed at between 800 and 900 rounds, it was not due to a broken striker. It was a dead trigger resulting from the trigger bar spring issue.
 
BTW, if the OP has an updated version of this gun, could he post some pictures of the primers on spent casings?

OK. Just had to figure out Imgur first! ;) Cell phone pic not as sharp as I'd like, but didn't want to drag out the DSLR today! :rolleyes:

66DloCP.jpg
 

TunnelRat

New member
I own or have owned striker pistols from Walther, Beretta, HK, SIG, Glock, S&W, CZ, Ruger, and Springfield Armory. I don't remember drags all the way to the edge of the primer on any of those I have owned.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
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Mackie244Bud

New member
TunnelRat says..
I own or have owned striker pistols from Walther, Beretta, HK, SIG, Glock, S&W, CZ, Ruger, and Springfield Armory. I don't remember drags all the way to the edge of the primer on any of those I have owned.

Then you have never owned a Shield, Glock 43 or the P365.
A Compact or Full Size gun will or should not have Primer Drag.
Why do you think that is?
Well, watch the video and you will understand.

When my P320 Compact fires the slide goes back about 1/8th of a inch before the barrel actually starts downward.
During this time the striker has time to recede away from the primer..
Try it with every striker fired gun that you own.
How far can the slide move before the barrel moves downward...
Once you see it you will easily understand the physics of it all.
Then move your Shield, Glock 43 and P365 slide watching for barrel downward movement.

Sig Sauer put out a statement that they are fully aware that the P365 creates Primer Drag, it is part of the design of the P365 and at no time does it compromise the striker.
I'm sure that Smith & Wesson and Glock would say the same thing.
If 3 major gun manufacturers are not worried about it..Then I'm surely not going to loose any sleep over it.

Until this hubub with the P365 (wonder why and where that came from) no one ever questioned "Primer Drag" on the M&P Shield or a Glock 43...
I guarantee you will never find a single thread about it..so why now with the P365?

What is Primer Drag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RhjvVeeH8s

ALL M&P Shields have Primer Drag!
ALL Glock 43's have Primer Drag!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI4qQtGewek

pblanc's post refers to SigTalk Forum...
The P365 has been discussed in full there:
If you have any questions about the P365 go there...

https://sigtalk.com/

Here is the Thread that he spoke of.
If you own a P365 please take the survey..

https://sigtalk.com/p250-p320-p365-p320-x-5-pistols/317940-updated-p365-crowdsourcing-our-issues-updated-6-25-18-a.html

Striker issues were very small and limited to some P365 with build dates from March to mid April.
Sig said that they had received a bad batch of Strikers from their vendor.
Something about the steel not being to spec.
There have not been any striker issues on any P365 with Build dates from mid April forward to today, at least the we could find.
If anyone knows of one please let us all know.

True one person had his striker break twice but except for him anyone that had their P365 repaired has never had another issue.
The Strikers have been redesigned as well as the striker chamber in the slide.

Striker Pin Re-Designed Discussed here:
https://sigtalk.com/p250-p320-p365-p320-x-5-pistols/318822-new-p365-striker-pin-design.html

At SigTalk I discovered that ALL Trigger Return Spring Issues have been on a P365's manufactured between April 20th and April 30th.

Link here:
https://sigtalk.com/p250-p320-p365-p320-x-5-pistols/312618-p365-trigger-spring.html
Page 6 Post #83 is a list that I compiled of all reported Trigger Spring Issues Forum wide..There were 10
There has not been a reported Trigger Spring Issue on any P365's with a Born on Date outside of April 20th to the 30th except one on March 27th.
Not sure what happened at Sig over those 10 days.
Again if anyone knows of any other instances please share it with us all.
I asked for the Build Date of MAC's P365 under his youtube video but as far as I know he never responded.

If you would have been at SigTalk Forum a month ago it was all a buzz about the P365.
Now things have pretty much settled down except some discussions occurring over the Striker and Trigger Springs or general questions.
Those issues have been resolved and there are no more P365 issues that we know about.
That's not to say that someone that is a very low numbered shooter will not still experience a issue.
Sig has been very quick on their repaired P365 turnaround.
If I was going to choose a EDC gun I would not choose one after only a couple hundred rounds.
But that's just me.

Of ALL the P365 owners posting at SigTalk Forum, or here or other Forums the majority are like myself "No Issues" at all.
My P365 was Born on March 19th, I have over 1800 error free perfect rounds downrange!
I must have at least another 1000 dry fires at home!

I Love my P365!
It put my Shield into my Range bag and it IS and has been my EDC since April.

But you don't have to take my word for it..Head over to SigTalk and you can read all about it.
Here you may see a P365 thread every now and then but there it's THE place to find out everything Sig and the P365 Info you ever want to know.
Maybe more than you wanted to know!
Lastly,
If you get a chance to shoot one or own one..I highly recommend it.
Through all P365 reviews it's accuracy and shootability has never been in question!
 
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Cosmodragoon

New member
I own or have owned striker pistols from Walther, Beretta, HK, SIG, Glock, S&W, CZ, Ruger, and Springfield Armory. I don't remember drags across the entire primer on any of those I have owned.

I've owned a bunch of center-fire semi-autos over the years. My sample is a little less diverse but I've had various models from S&W, Beretta, CZ, FN, Walther, and Rock Island. I don't reload and I don't spend a ton of time examining brass, but I do clean up after myself and I'm pretty sure I'd notice if my primers looked like the ones in the picture.
 

pblanc

New member
Mackie244Bud, some of the information you posted about the results of the sig talk survey are incorrect.

Fourteen out of fifteen broken strikers reported were with pistols manufactured from March 5 to April 9, but one pistol manufactured on May 18 was reported to have suffered a broken striker. The respondents reporting broken strikers constituted 8.43% of those who participated in the poll. I am not sure I would call that incidence "very small".

As for dead triggers, which are presumed to be due to breakage or dislodgement of the trigger bar spring, these occurred in pistols manufactured anywhere from March 5 to May 21 inclusive. But 6 of the 8 reported dead trigger failures occurred in pistols manufactured from April 20 through April 29 inclusive. Dead triggers were reported by 4.49% of those who participated in the poll.

Another P365 owner just reported a dead trigger at a round count of 425 on glock talk today, but did not give the date of manufacture of the pistol:

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/back-to-the-sig-mothership.1708210/#post-25532940
 

Mackie244Bud

New member
Hi Bart,
are you the guy who doesn’t consider being shot through the leg by a falling P320 in a holster to be “great bodily harm”?
Yes! I believe that I am!
See that stuck with you...I'm very impressed!!

There was or I'm sure still is a youtube video of a guy shooting himself in the leg when holstering his pistol walking up to a target outside.
I saw another of a guy that shot his hip while sitting in a car..
I believe that they all were a through and through with no shattered bones.
They were ALL very very lucky that their injury's were not worse.
They will all make a full recovery.
In those instances that did come with I'm sure excruciating pain I do not consider "Great Bodily Harm!"
Not that I would want to be shot at all but if I was I can only hope it to be of that nature.

To me "Great Bodily Harm" is where bones are shattered and the near if not loss of a limb's full usage a torso shot injuring internal organs requiring months of hospitalization, recovery, follow up surgery's, a "Life Altering" injury.
THAT is not a few days to a week in a hospital and injury healing to full recovery.
More embarrassed that you shot yourself and or a great story as to what not to do.
A scar for sure but a bump in the road if you will.
You could still play basketball...of course as long as you could already. LOL!
There has to be some degree between minor to Life Altering.

Not that you wanted my description of "Great Bodily Harm" but I thought that I would clarify for others in this thread not familiar with your reference.

You are starting to come off a bit fanboyish on Sig.

A bit? Make no mistake about it.. When it comes to the Sig Sauer P365 and the P320 Compact RX ..
I AM completely SIG FANBOYISH! and proud of it!
Now am I Sig Fanboyish across the board for everything Sig Sauer..No!
Mainly because I do not have first hand knowledge of any other Sig Firearms so I would not be posting in those threads.
Just the P365 and P320 which I own first hand and I have researched heavily.

I am also M&P Shield FANBOYISH! even though it is currently not my EDC I will always Love my Shield.

Let's not kid ourselves there are many FANBOYISH people here..We Love guns!
Some may be that for
Glock
Sig
M&P
Ruger
Kimber
I mean name every manufacturer.
Some just one kind others mixes.
I do not believe it to be a bad thing as long as you can contribute something positively to the discussion.
This does not mean that you cannot say something bad about it too..as constructive criticism.
I know that Sig has had their bad moments with the P365 delivery but on the whole I believe so much better than bad and they seem to be past the initial rough patches at this point.
Not to mention that mine has been perfect...Ooops..There I go the Fanboyish in me ! LOL!

Unfortunately there are also Anti-Fandoys that hate one manufacturer or another and will never under any circumstances say anything good about them.
They will in fact go out of their way to sour any discussion about them.
Sometimes it can be a entire manufacturer or just a specific gun model here or there.
I think that they do the most harm..I'd say just stay out of the thread but they just can't help themselves.
Most of the time you can recognize them as a "Hit & Run" Jump in say one negative remark and leave never to be seen again in that thread..satisfied that they have done their part.
So..being FanBoyish well it is what it is.
That's my 2c
 
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