Question. LEOs at the door with warrant

[AirForceShooter]

Stay at he door in full view of the LEO's
Don't let them in and ask for the phone number of their supervisor.
Call on your cell. Don't get out of their sight.
Tell them what you're doing and let them hear.
Hope they wait for you to get the call done and verify their ID's

Next step is going to be a bunch of very mad LEO's in your house.
Ask to see and read the warrant.
Shut up!!!

AFS

 

[Globug]

As a Deputy US Marshal on a Fugitive Task Force, who serves warrants every day, I'll give you my opinion..

I think you should probably defer to the thought that any real-officers are going to be very noisy, and most often work during the normal 8-5 working hours timeframe. I don't think you could ever expect warrant service after 9:00 pm, or before 5:00...

The officers serving the warrant could be from the US Marshals, DEA, ATF and the local PD may know nothing about the warrant. As often as we ask for the local PD to assist us, we also serve warrants on our own and the local PD has no idea we even came to work today.

There is no "hotline" you can call to determine if they are real cops or not.

The standard protocol (except for rare no-knock warrants) is to knock and announce "POLICE, OR "POLICE WITH A WARRANT" very loudly, then wait a "reasonable" amount of time that it would take for someone to answer the door..in most cases 30 seconds to 1 minute...maybe less depending on the agency, the officers, or the person/property the warrant is for. If they are worried that some child porn vendor might erase his HD, or the meth is going to get flushed, that waiting period at the front door may be very brief, it only has to be long enough to be "reasonable", unless there is exigency because the officers fear that evidence is being destroyed etc..

If no answer, to door gets kicked/rammed...

I know this is a pro-gun, pro-defense-of-my-castle, right-to-bear-arms website (so am I for the record), however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.

Officers are trained nowadays, not to wait until the perp raises the gun in their direction. If I'm doing a felony traffic stop and the driver grabs a gun from the glovebox, I'm not waiting until I can see down his barrel before I start shooting. The driver reaching for the gun displays "intent", and again, the court will lean in the officers' "good faith" assertion that the driver displayed "intent".

Same thing goes when serving warrants. If we knock and announce, and then kick the door and on the other side is a guy with a gun in his hand, he's most likely getting shot right there, whether he raises it or not.

Just some thoughts....

 

[Creature]

I have always wondered why warrants ever get served at a place of residence. Granted, some warrants just absolutely must be served at the place of residence. But it seems to me that it is much safer for everyone involved that if you want to grab someone, grab them while they are in their car or when they are standing in the driveway...or at least outdoors somewhere.

I say this because when you kick down a door to find someone, you will be forced to make a split second decisions when you actually make contact with anyone inside the residence...and when confronting the fugitive. Many times you wont/don't know whether anyone was able to arm themselves during the entry process until you can actually see his/her hands.

When a warrant is served outdoors, you can get "eyes on" the fugitive before actually making contact with that person. Controlling the situation is much easier than say if you have to search a house for the person.

however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.

Also, this statement bothers me greatly.

 

[tuckerdog1]

The whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation. For someone like myself, who has zero reason for the police to be at their door, there should be suspicion if some one claiming to be police comes-a-knockin.

So if I just play the odds that it really is the police, and get it wrong, I could be toast. Or if it really is the police, but I'm not sure that's the case & they bash in the door, and being of a mind to defend myself, I'm armed, I either shoot a LEO, get shot myself, or both.

Tuckerdog1

 

[Wildalaska]

Tell that to these people: http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html

Read that again

First thing I learned in statistics class was that people who start bringing up statistics are usually manipulating them to show whatever they want to show. Statistics lie.

Lightning strikes are a statistic too. We don't go around wearing tinfoil shields do we?

Don't let your own personal worldview interfere with reality.

WildlistentoglobugAlaska TM

 

[kgpcr]

Dont let them in... Thats funny if its a real warrant for anything to do with drugs your door comes down and they come in. they dont want to let the perps flush it all down the toileet. they also dont want to give the perps time to barricade in so they can flush more. If they are cops then your best bet is let them come in and deal with it in court. resisting arrest or them doing thier job is never a wise thing to do

 

[tuckerdog1]

If they are cops then your best bet is let them come in and deal with it in court. resisting arrest or them doing thier job is never a wise thing to do

Not a problem at all. For real police, they'd get 100% coorporation. Just want to be sure that's who I'm dealing with before I drop my guard.

Tuckerdog1

 

[Thunderhawk88]

Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Now if they manage to produce all of these things, well I suppose it is safe to say that they are the real deal and it is probably safe to open the door, after putting the armament safely away

I am sure they will waste time complying rather than knocking your door and your butt down. If they were to come, I'm sure there wouldn't be a polite knock and time for you to answer.

 

[Creature]

Read that again

I did. What is your point? Does appearing to be targeted mean they are guilty of something? Does that mean they CAUSED the invasion by police impersonators?

The point I was making is that BG can and DO sometimes dress up as police to do a home invasion.

If BG's are going to knock at MY door all dressed up as cops, (and using your words, I am pretty sure that I am a "legitimate" person), I would say that I have been targeted.

So, again...what's your point?

 

[Tim Burke]

But if you've got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in.

With apologies...

 

[Erik]

In no particular order:

Warrants are basically for people or stuff. Residences contain people and stuff. They are also a predictable location a given suspect will start and end the day at.

LEOs will usually be quite getting into position, and as loud as possible upon getting there.

There is no requirement for uniformed officer presence.

There is no practical way to verify legitimacy of a given group of LEOs. The time frame involed is thirty seconds to a minute or two from knock to breach. The time frame ends when immediate access is denied. Denial of immedaite entry typically equals immediate breach, folks.

What to do? Come to the door or window, verify what you can see, usually an entry team, perimeter team, and extras. At the point your observed your time line begins to shrink, not that it was very long to begin with. You basically have slightly longer than how long the entry team estimates the average person can get to the door from where ever you are observed.

"Knock" warrants are common place, deemed low risk compared to high risk ones, and are typically not performed by tactical teams. The knock comes before the breach, hence the name. Compliance via opening the door excludes the breach.

Upon opening the door, conversation doesn't exactly ensue as imagined. The entry team will enter. Immediately and quickly.

I echo Glowbug's comments on time lines, training, the reasonable standard, the what is likely to happen to folks with weapons in hand.

---

The "no-knock" warrants are deemed high risk, and are typically conducted by tactical teams and/or specialty teams.

It is essentially the same but that the breach occurs before the announcement.

Interestingly enough "low risk" warrants are more dangerous than "high risk" ones in that more people on both sides of the equation get hurt. It largely has to do with the overwhelming force and the element of surprise which comes along with the no-knock package.

 

[Erik]

Wrong addresses are statistically very rare occurances. You hear about every one of the no-knock ones, and occassionally the knock ones. There really isn't any excuse for it, but it unfortunately happens.

Poser entry teams are all but unheard of.

 

[vox rationis]

Quote:
perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Quote

At which time your door would be knocked down and you would be tackled and cuffed, or if you're holding a weapon, maybe even shot. As stated earlier, the police will think you're stalling because you have something to hide, and will waste little time gaining entry to your residence.

I would hope that the police would use more judicious judgment and restraint if they heard that type of response from inside a home than to just decide to kick the door in anyway and potentially get into a terrible fire fight with a scared homeowner fearing home invasion. So perhaps that is something to add in one's response: "You must have the wrong house and I am in fear for my life that you are home invaders, and I will require a call from your supervisor/proper squad cars outside/etc before opening the door". Unfortunately the home owner in this situation, is like you guys have already said, pretty much screwed. I'm hoping that announcing your doubts regarding their identity and that you are afraid for your life and fearing a home invasion, and that you are armed and will resist will make crooks go away and choose an easier target, and make real cops approach the problem more judiciously in such a case and use a little restraint to make sure they do have the right house, assuage the home owner's fears, and de-escalate the situation.

Now if you live next to a crackhouse, well then I could see both the police and would be crack-house invaders wanting to strike hard and fast, and in that case you are pretty much screwed.... Having extremely sturdy doors and a secure safe room would seem to be a very good idea .

 

[JohnMcD348]

A comment was made in an earlier post about the 8-5 work time frame. I saw personally(neighbor next door) get a warrant served at 3am in search of child "porn". Apparently, he was very heavy into it. And a Youth pastor.... I personally know many people in the Law Enforcement community from State Troopers to local Town/Community Law Enforcement. If you're being pulled over in a vehicle and do not feel safe in THAT particular area, as long as you continue to travel in a reasonable manner and make no attempts to evade, no harm would come to you. The officer is made very aware of situations like this by the news media and training. If you Choose not to stop immediatley and continue to drive to a well lighted and populated area, the LEO should have no problem with that measure.

In the home, keep yourself protected but visible to the persons at teh door(within reason) and let them know you are calling for verification if you do not believe them. I have been told that they have had dispatch contact the person in the phone to tell them the persons at teh door were LEO's. If they are not serving a no knock warrant, chances are, what they are looking for is not important enough to kill you for or risk loosing their life over. If it was then a tactical team will let you know they are there by placing their foot on your throat and let you know what they are there for. In which case the point is mute.

I am not a trained LEO, I have trained with them in the past and while I was in Emergency services and in the Military. I have many friends who wear the shield and gun and patrol the streets and feel very confident that if doubt is to be had, and you have no reason to fear any wrong doing on your part, hesitation would be granted.


That is not to say that if mistakes are made and addresses are mixed up, that things can not go very bad, very fast. I situation happend like that no too long ago to a non-English speaking family in another part of the country and fortunately, after many rounds were fired by the family member protecting his home and the Tactical team serving the warrant, there were no fatalities.

 

[Perldog007]

Halloween night 2006. My friend and Neighbor Jay was killed by home invaders that yelled ".... State Police" as they broke the front door.

Until one of them pistol whipped him everyone in the house thought they were genuine plain clothes cops. Four people were playing cards at the kitchen table and they all put their hands on the table and sat still.

Very tough call. Whether they are cops or not, they are probably coming in. If they are cops and you resist you are toast. If they are not cops and you comply like Jay did you are toast.

I will say that when I was doing security work I personally witnessed one B.S. raid that looked like some dumb@$$ had priapism. Forty people to jack up one apartment full of potheads, and they came away empty handed. I think they found a dirty bong.

They also jacked up everyone near the building (the warrant was for an apartment).

Flash bangs ruined the apartment.

A guy coming home from working at a gun store, legally carrying his revolver openly was almost gunned down by a hand full of idiots brandishing MP5s'. He was outside the building and did not match any descriptions (wrong race) and lived two floors below the target location.

All this for less than a gram of marijuana residue.

All the officers were dressed like tacticool ninjas, most in jeans/sweaters/ski masks. Would not have been too much of a leap for somebody to think they were other than LEO.

I had spoken to the same residents about noise complaints, they always opened their door. It could have been handled much differently. Seems the Tactical folks just had to have a raid.

Now bear in mind that the department under discussion normally displayed the highest levels of professionalism and devotion to duty. Even good cops can have a brain fart or a bad day.

The very next time they were on the complex they were back to being the best of the best. If I had to be a security guard again I would hope to be in their backyard again.

Bottom line, I hope I guess right and I will do whatever I can to keep the real cops from being interested in me. If I thought it was real cops I would ask them what they wanted me to do with my weapon for their safety and mine. The answer might tip me off if they were bogus.

But like I said, hope it never happens and hope I guess right if it does.

 

[Spade Cooley]

This is an easy one, obey the law and they will not be coming to your house.

If they should come, look out and see if they are in uniform. Not too many crooks go to the trouble of going to Hollyood and renting cop suits. If you refuse to open up when they have a warrant, expect to have the door coming down. Its that simple.

I can remember a call we got many years ago. A black Man was beating up his old lady and the police were called. We arrived and heard the sounds of screams and breaking furniture. We did the required knock and notice, then it got real quiet. Then a man answered, "Just slip the search warrant under the door". When we quit laughing the door was knocked off the hinges and landed on top of the man. It could have been done much easier.

 

[ZeSpectre]

This is an easy one, obey the law and they will not be coming to your house.

Wow, to be that innocent again. I've worked LE and I don't believe that one.
Who was it here that had a false spouse-abuse charge laid by an ex and got seriously jacked up for doing nothing at all?

Not too many crooks go to the trouble of going to Hollyood and renting cop suits.

and some do
http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1317473&nid=25

Fake Cops Stop Woman in Silver Spring
December 28, 2007 - 8:31am
Darci Marchese, WTOP Radio

WASHINGTON - Police in Montgomery County are warning residents about two fake cops.

A 39-year-old woman reported to police that just before 1 a.m. on Dec. 21 she was pulled over by what looked like a police car with red and blue lights flashing. At the same time, another a white car that looked like a police car was coming down the road in the opposite direction. It made a U-turn and stopped behind her.

Police say a man wearing what appeared to be a police uniform approached the driver's side window, told the woman had been speeding and asked for her driver's license. As she talked to the officer, another man dressed in similar clothing, motioned for her to roll down her passenger side window. She did and her purse was stolen.

The two men drove off in their respective cars.

Police say the suspects are both white men between 20 and 25. One was 6-feet tall and about 170 pounds. He was wearing a blue uniform and driving a white police-style vehicle with a light-bar attached to the top. The second man was about 5-foot-8 and 200 pounds, wearing a blue uniform. He also was driving a white police-style vehicle with a light bar attached to the top.

If you know anything about this crime, call the police at 301-565-5835.

In light of this incident, police are offering the following tips so you don't become a victim:

* If an officer initiates a traffic stop, particularly one in street clothes or a questionable-looking vehicle, continue to drive to a well-lighted, open area before stopping. Police say you should turn on your flashers and drive slowly.
* All officers carry photo identification with their badges. They are required to display them if asked. You can ask for ID and should since anyone can purchase a new or used badge off the Internet, police say.
* Do not be afraid to have the officer hold up the ID card. Officers can't let you hold their cards, but you can take the time to read the ID and look for the agency name, picture of the officer, and rank.
* Police say you shouldn't be afraid to tell the officer you plan to dispatch and verify the officer's identity.

 

[Chui]

... Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up... either way, expect little/no patience.

LOL!!!

I think that is a situation in which most people will "fumble". Who doesn't respect the law? I certainly do. I don't trust those given the responsibility to enforce it. I trust home invaders even less.

I really don't have an informative, unique answer for that one. For once you acknowledge your presence either party may be prone to resort to high-handed tactics.

Maybe you could make a run for it and be a "star" on COPS. Who knows?

This is the problem with gov't kicking down doors; you don't know WHO represents LAW & ORDER and who represents naked aggression.

 

[nate45]

I thought police new there way around town.....

Police Kill Wrong Man
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/gkhan/2004/07/police-kill-wrong-man.html

Man killed in police raid on wrong house
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/06/tennessee.shooting.02.ap/index.html

Deputies Raid Wrong Address, Kill Couple's Dog

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1107/474003.html

Drug War Victims-lists multiple victims
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html

Police Raid Wrong House,Gunfire Breaks Out.-video
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e4_1197976331&c=1

Police burst into wrong apartment
www.charleston.net/news/2008/ jan/03/police_burst_into_wrong_apartment26530/

Police raid targets wrong address
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/articles/2007/05/04/news/news01.txt

 

[kgpcr]

Yes it does happen but your chances are not enough for me to worry about that happening. Yes be prepared but for reality not what if long shots