Question about striker-fired semi-autos

[marine6680]

The finger behind the trigger thing gave me pause as well. I am glad you are rethinking that practice. A straight finger across the trigger guard is a good idea.


I think others have explained sufficiently that the way the striker is released and or cocked is different for all the different pistols.


I personally have never worried over carrying a round in the chamber, even in a striker fired. (I carried a XD)

Knowing how your pistol works mechanically can really help ease your concerns. You will then know all the ways that the pistol is designed to prevent a discharge from happening unintended.


Almost all unintended discharges are caused by human error. It is rare that the firearm fails mechanically, and usually there is a secondary safety to prevent an actual discharge. On a striker fired, the firing pin block prevents issues should the sear slip or break for some unlikely reason.

Often times the mechanical failures you hear about are still human error of the user, due to modifications to the action. Poorly done trigger jobs as example.


If you pay attention to your actions when handling the firearm, then you should have no issues.

Holsters and other foreign objects pulling the trigger when holstering the firearm can be prevented by paying attention.


The firearms are tested heavily to ensure just about all possible situations and mechanical failures will not allow a chambered round to fire... California has its own testing requirements that require a lot stricter safety measures.


It all boils down to the fact that if you set off a round... its almost assuredly your fault. If it is somehow a mechanical failure despite the odds, there is nothing you could have done to prevent it at that point in all likelihood.


Edit:

Tony... your post came in while I was typing...

You need to practice the draw as you would if you was in need to use it. Draw while grabbing the pistol with a proper grip... if you practice with an improper grip, that will be how you draw when under stress... and you will be holding a pistol that you can't fire without correcting your grip first.

If you are practicing drawing, you should be practicing with the pistol unloaded.

You can use a dummy round if you want to practice draw and fire.

 

[tipoc]

I carry an XD40SC and I practice drawing and I am careful not to touch the trigger or safety grip on the back of the grip. I use a crossbreed holster that covers the trigger but when I draw and put my palm on the slide above the safety grip.

Sounds awkward and dangerous.

What do you do when you pick the gun up off a table?

Most folks simply pick it up. Hands around the stocks, if there is a grip safety it gets depressed, trigger finger either along side the trigger guard or on the side of the frame above the trigger guard, muzzle pointed in a safe direction. You put it down the same way. You also holster and unholster it the same way, only moving the trigger finger as needed to clear the edge of the holster.

A holster should be a safe place for the gun. It should be safe going in and coming out. With a proper holster, designed for the task you want it to do, it should be comforting.

As fellas have said there is no need for fingers behind triggers or keeping the hands off the butt.

tipoc

 

[lee n. field]

Of course, you know where I'm going with this . . .

Carrying with a round in the chamber makes me nervy.

I carry two striker-fired semi-autos: a Kahr CW9, and a Glock 29SF.

...So it's these actions - not the actual carry - that makes me nervous.

The Kahr doesn't bother me so much: It has a long, heavy trigger pull - ...

The Glock is another matter. Its trigger has little travel. And it sits too far back to do the finger-behind-the-trigger thing while handling it.

For whatever reason, carrying my revolver (Smith 686+, 3" bbl) doesn't nerve me. I guess I'm just a wheelgun guy at heart (I am). That's part of the reason for my OP. With a revolver, I can see the hammer; and the trigger is a long heavy pull. I can't see strikers - and that's the issue. It's psychological. Knowing now that they're not in an actual cocked position helps somehow.

I understand the feeling, and to a certain extent share it. With a revolver, I can see the hammer down, I know nothing's gong to happen.

What I've found helpful is to understand how a particular firearm works.

The XD, for example. Examine it. The grip safety blocks the sear physically. Without it being depressed, nothing can happen. There's a striker block. Unless the trigger is pulled and the striker block moved out of the way, the striker block keeps the striker from moving forward.

That gun will not fire, unless a whole lot of safety features are deactivated.

( All bets are off if that sear ledge on the striker breaks..... Which I have never, ever heard of happening.)

 

[DaleA]

This is NOT aimed at the OP, but does anybody remember a negligent discharge an airline pilot had in the cockpit of the plane?

If I remember correctly the pilot was trying to follow a 'safety procedure' set up that had the pilots handling the gun in the cockpit before taking off and then again on landing.

Sometimes it seems we get goofy overthinking safety when we could just use it as it was designed and leave it alone otherwise.

 

[wayne51]

so there is always pressure of some kind on the the spring, so how often do you change springs ? thats the reason i have a FNX instead of a M&P , but the m&p fits my hand much better.

 

[Sevens]

so how often do you change springs ?

I've heard directly from the mouth of a (well known in some circles) professional trainer that he only does it pre-emptively (as in, never sees a failure related to the springs...) and he changes them at approximately 20,000 or so rounds.

For most folks... TWENTY THOUSAND is a lifetime from a single handgun.

It's just not something to be concerned about if we're talking about modern, newly built firearms here. Glock, M&P? Don't worry about the springs in it, unless you shoot the volume of ammo that literally costs far more than the price of a whole new handgun.

 

[RC20]

This is NOT aimed at the OP, but does anybody remember a negligent discharge an airline pilot had in the cockpit of the plane?

If I remember correctly the pilot was trying to follow a 'safety procedure' set up that had the pilots handling the gun in the cockpit before taking off and then again on landing.

Sometimes it seems we get goofy overthinking safety when we could just use it as it was designed and leave it alone otherwise.

I do remember it, I don't know that I got any details.

My opinion is that its nuts for a pilot to have a gun. Pilots as a group are overrated (and yes I have a license). Flying is a fairly easily learned skill, though good piloting requires a great deal of diligence and introspection (which if you think you are special you tend not to have).

Lock the door and stick to flying. All a pilot with a gun is going to do is hurt the wrong someone.

Just recently a NZ pilot would not let the co-pilot back in the cockpit because he was ticked off at him (the co pilot had to do a drug test which is random and had no control over, phew).

My general take on strikers it that they should have safeties. The pull (which can be changed to higher but is not) is 4-5 lbs. A DA pull is 10-14, which is reasonably safe.

Of course its hard to do DA so they lighten up the striker and do not put a safety on the gun (S&W aside).

 

[marine6680]

Trigger pull... unless its very light, I don't find a heavy one around 10lb any safer than a 5lb one. But it is a combination of trigger pull and the length of pull that determines a safe trigger, for defensive use and carry, in my opinion.


For a 1911 trigger, 5lb is as low as I feel is safe. Not from a mechanical standpoint, but from the standpoint of the trigger being less forgiving to those under stress or less focused.

For a long DAO trigger pull, 4lb can/may be safe.


In a striker fired pistol, I like round 5-6lb...


Unless you push the trigger so light as to make it mechanically unreliable and a liability, the trigger will not pull itself or disengage from normal handling and not even from drops or other extreme shock. Secondary safeties, like firing pin blocks, are also present to prevent issues.

A modern striker fired pistol with an unmodified stock trigger will be very safe and stable.


If you like safeties, that is fine... but they are not designed to make the action safer. (not in modern pistol designs anyway)

They are designed to block the function of the trigger from discharging the gun... they do not increase drop safety or block a firing pin, or stop a broken hammer from falling.

They prevent people being careless with their finger from firing the firearm. You simply can't pull the trigger and fire the gun... They may arguably prevent foreign objects from pulling the trigger unintended when handling/holstering.

 

[LockedBreech]

[Self-delete, off topic]

 

[4thPoint]

This is NOT aimed at the OP, but does anybody remember a negligent discharge an airline pilot had in the cockpit of the plane?

If I remember correctly the pilot was trying to follow a 'safety procedure' set up that had the pilots handling the gun in the cockpit before taking off and then again on landing.

Sometimes it seems we get goofy overthinking safety when we could just use it as it was designed and leave it alone otherwise.

US Airways pilot, way back in late 2008 I think.
The TSA's protocol demanded that a padlock be inserted through a hole in the holster and be locked, any time the wearer left the cockpit. So, if I remember correctly, a pilot in a darkened, cramped cockpit tried to comply with the rule while still in a comfortable chair and his firearm was discharged.

We use holsters that cover the trigger opening for a reason and this bumbling idiot of an agency demands the pilots now stick a metal object into the same area occupied by the pistol's trigger.

That? Accident waiting to happen? Nooooooo.....

 

[44 AMP]

.. does anybody remember a negligent discharge an airline pilot had in the cockpit of the plane?

If I remember correctly the pilot was trying to follow a 'safety procedure' set up that had the pilots handling the gun in the cockpit before taking off and then again on landing

I do recall hearing of the incident, though I no longer remember much of the details. One detail I do remember hearing about was that the incident was essentially caused by the wonky "lock box" that the FAA (or perhaps HomeSEC) required them to put the gun in, and then take it out check it, and put it back in several times during a flight. Apparently it was possible to bump the trigger with the box, and rules requiring its use and frequent use made it a sure thing it was going to happen eventually.

And, of course, this was used as justification to remove the guns, period.

I may have it wrong, but its what I remember.

 

[jr24]

In terms of frequent holstering/unholstering for driving/exiting cars, and whatnot; I prefer to use a quick clip design and remove the gun in the holster. No chances of anything getting in the trigger if the gun never leaves a solid holster.

Something similar to http://www.midwayusa.com/product/96...-27-33-34-35-kydex-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding


or one with snaps like a Milt Sparks Summer Special.

 

[Sabrewolfe]

I concur with jr24 about the holster. It's a lot easier and safer to remove the holster with the gun still in it. I started with a Galco Triton, then moved to a PJ Holster, and being able to quickly and easily take the gun on and off my hip without exposing the trigger was a big bonus for me. Even sitting down in the car, it's not difficult to do. I used to be in and out of a car a lot and couldn't always carry where I was going, and this made it hugely easier.

Now as far as reholstering, this is part of why I'm an XD fan. Thanks to the grip safety, I can rotating my thumb up to the rear sight and disengage it so that the trigger and the grip safeties are both active while I reholster the weapon. It makes me feel safer given how bad my hands are going to be shaking after the adrenaline dump if I ever have a DGU.

 

[kraigwy]

but just remember to observe the cardinal 4 Rules at all times and nothing bad can happen.

^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

 

[RX-79G]

but just remember to infallible at all times and nothing bad can happen.

There you go.

 

[Sevens]

Oh, we can argue that something BAD can still happen, but when observing the Four Rules, you've done just about the best we can come up with to minimize the "bad" and lessen the chance that bad happens, all while still making use of firearms.

 

[RX-79G]

Oh, we can argue that something BAD can still happen, but when observing the Four Rules, you've done just about the best we can come up with to minimize the "bad" and lessen the chance that bad happens, all while still making use of firearms.

No, you haven't.

Mechanical systems compliment good habits and training.

There was no "Beretta leg" or "revolver leg". When Glock sold everyone on a single action trigger weight for carry, NDs increased. We reacted to those NDs with changes in holster design and great emphasis on trigger discipline.

Trigger discipline is a great idea. But reasonable trigger pulls for duty guns is also a good idea. In concert, they greatly lower the risk of an ND - especially when the gun is being handled by a fallible human, rather than a robot.

"But it's a training problem!" Not being able to shoot a 12 pound DA trigger is also a training problem.

DA triggers are like handrails - you would assume you're not going to stumble on the stairs, but it is nicer to catch yourself rather than fall when your brain fails to put your feet in the right spot.


Anyone here ever fell while walking, dropped a glass, drifted out of their lane, cut themselves in the kitchen, burned their fingers on the stove? Imagine if you trained with a pistol for as much time as you've spent learning to walk. Yet we still screw that up.

 

[LockedBreech]

No, you haven't.



Mechanical systems compliment good habits and training.



There was no "Beretta leg" or "revolver leg". When Glock sold everyone on a single action trigger weight for carry, NDs increased. We reacted to those NDs with changes in holster design and great emphasis on trigger discipline.



Trigger discipline is a great idea. But reasonable trigger pulls for duty guns is also a good idea. In concert, they greatly lower the risk of an ND - especially when the gun is being handled by a fallible human, rather than a robot.



"But it's a training problem!" Not being able to shoot a 12 pound DA trigger is also a training problem.



DA triggers are like handrails - you would assume you're not going to stumble on the stairs, but it is nicer to catch yourself rather than fall when your brain fails to put your feet in the right spot.





Anyone here ever fell while walking, dropped a glass, drifted out of their lane, cut themselves in the kitchen, burned their fingers on the stove? Imagine if you trained with a pistol for as much time as you've spent learning to walk. Yet we still screw that up.

That's partly why there are 4 rules. They back each other up somewhat, I roundly reject the idea that NDs are inevitable. The increase in NDs wasn't the fault of lighter triggers, it was the fault of each and every one of those shooters who failed to follow the 4 rules. And perhaps, to an extent, agencies cutting back more and more on required training and range time. I know older shooters who've never had one in a lifetime of handling firearms. I think the inevitability is just something people who are negligent tell themselves to feel better. Having an ND doesn't make you a bad shooter or bad person, but it does, unequivocally, mean you were negligent in that moment, and that's on you, not on a trend in trigger weight. Opinions vary, that's fine, but there's mine.

 

[Sevens]

One of the LESS OBVIOUS things about Cooper's Four Rules that is pure genius is that he knew to make FOUR of them, very clear & concise.

If you read the NRA's safety rules, there's what... 10 or 12?
If you read many owner's manuals, there's how many... 8, 15?
They've got rules covering climbing fences with loaded long guns and the hazards of bore obstructions and of sticking the wrong ammo in to a firearm.

While all of those are valid, Cooper's Four Rules are phenomenal because the average gun guy can REMEMBER them for himself and even more importantly, he can remember them to share them with others.

I don't share a range trip with anyone without bringing up those four rules.

No, you haven't.

Nor have you, mouth. If you want to CEASE all instances of ND's, cease all human intervention with firearms. Stay in your kitchen and cut yourself while falling down the stairs.

 

[RX-79G]

The increase in NDs wasn't the fault of lighter triggers, it was the fault of each and every one of those shooters who failed to follow the 4 rules. And perhaps, to an extent, agencies cutting back more and more on required training and range time. I know older shooters who've never had one in a lifetime of handling firearms. I think the inevitability is just something people who are negligent tell themselves to feel better. Having an ND doesn't make you a bad shooter or bad person, but it does, unequivocally, mean you were negligent in that moment, and that's on you, not on a trend in trigger weight. Opinions vary, that's fine, but there's mine.

This statement reflects the fundamental problem discussing NDs. Everyone is keen to talk about whose "fault" the ND should be assigned to, but no one wants to say "Who cares whose fault it is! What will decrease the problem?"

The buck always stops with the operator. Pilot error is pilot error, but no one in the aviation world seems to have a problem owning the fact that some planes are much less tolerant of error than others. Harriers aren't "widow makers" because all Harrier pilots are idiots compared to the F-16 pilots.

During the same era that saw the introduction of ABS, all wheel drive, traction control, lane warnings and airbags; gun designers removed the equivalent safety equipment from firearms.

How is it that it is good to prevent car accidents with mechanical devices that "hide" human error, but it is bad to do the same with a gun? Is it just machismo, or some sort of rugged individualism that we get away with because the majority of NDs just happen to not kill anyone?