Question about guns that bad guys carry

[Glenn Dee]

Kudos Clyde...

In my experience... Criminals come in four basic flavors. The opertunistic guy is one who lives on the fringe of crime and will take advantage of a situation and commit a criminal act usually nonviolent but will resort to violence if it suits him.

The professional criminal is just that, a professional. Usually avoids violence. Is good at what he does. (burglary, confidence game, car thief, booster, etc.) IME Most of these people may have a prison record, but spend most of their time free to do their thing. Most of these guys see a gun as a risk of an additional charge.

I dont know what to call them except delusional criminals. They include pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, fences, and the like. They seem to believe they are providing a service to the public, and are somehow more legitimate than others. These that I have known will use violence but usually as a last resort.

Lastly is the scary guy. He may be a professional but uses violence to attain his means. Armed robbers, muggers, purse snatchers, and psychos. They IME leave home every day with the intent of threatening, or doing violence to others.

Glenn D.

 

[Dardanos Porter]

Hello,

Thanks for your valuable information and question. Well, it is generally the weaponry that you and I possess. I would like to say that, Most of the gang bangers carry guns that are dirtier and rustier than all hell. They don't want pretty guns, they're just going to kill someone and toss it anyway. An odd amount of ammunition in the magazine, say for instance 5 rounds in a 9mm or 3 rounds in a .380, probably because they already shot 1/2 the magazine into some homeboy.

More accomplished street thugs will use hollow points, generally the cheapest stuff Walmart carries. Their guns are in generally better condition, although still poor to our standards. Maybe a 12 gauge pump shotgun with the stock broken off left behind a dope house door for security, and a gun in between the couch cushion, and one on them as well. The grips are usually falling off, broken safeties from poor maintenance and handling.

Thanks a lot for your help!!

 

[C0untZer0]

I have wondered about the quality of guns the BG carry.

In Orlando where 3 men attempted to rob an online casino parlor, it looked like at least one of the suspects had a non-functioning firearm. There were several points in the robbery where I thought a BG could have easily killed the security gaurd - but either he didn't pull the trigger or the gun didn't fire.

Deputy Steven Rankin pulled over career criminal Ben Westbrook on a traffic stop, when he approached the car, Westbrook shot him in the face. When Westbrook stepped out of the car to kill the deputy, Westbrook's weapon jammed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfgh13KSyk

I think in both those cases, the good guys benefitted from the bad guys not having quality relaible weapons.

 

[C0untZer0]

People take too much of a simplistic approach in looking at criminals. Look at it this way. A criminal is only a criminal after he commits a crime. Before that, he is the exact same as any of us. He could easily walk into a gun store and buy a pistol. I'd be willing to bet that a large number of guns used in crimes are legally bought and transferred. Pretending otherwise is just naive.

- Hardworker

I have to refute this.

1) A large majority of criminal adults carry a juvenile criminal history with them into adulthood. It's not as if this group of people turn 21 and then turn violent and suddenly begin using guns to commit crimes like robbery, assault and murder. A large majority of criminals have a long history of criminality in their youth, like shoplifting, public disturbance, assault, drug possession, resisting arrest etc...

2) Yes a criminal is only a criminal after he commits a crime. Before that, he is the exact same as any of us. He could easily walk into a gun store and buy a pistol... Generally speaking the "average" criminal is going to commit a crime fairly early in his life, so he is going to spend the majority of his life as someone who is prohibited from obtaining firarms. In that sense they are not like any one of us. There are some people on this forum in their 20s and 30s but there also are people on this forum in their 40s and 50s and older... In that sense, many of us have lived for decades being able to legally obtain firearms and we're still are able to legally obtain firearms whereas the average criminal has lived decades prohibited from legally aquiring a firearm.

3) Most criminals don't stock up on weapons during a time when they are legally able to purchase a firearm for future use at a time when they know they won't be able to. Criminals usually lack discipline, self-control, are impulsive and generally short-sighted (figuratively)

I am excluding the mentally disturbed shooters from this. They don't fit this pattern at all. You can see intelligent people deteriorate mentally at any age. It usually takes some time for the society to officially categorize them as mentally unstable. And in the first stages of their mental illness, and before they’ve been identified “officially” as having mental health issues, they are able to legally obtain firearms. And – unlike the average criminal, people who are mentally ill often can and do spend money on quality firearms, and quality ammunition.

Another good question on this topic is how many criminals when they go to commit a crime carry a backup weapon? For the criminals who hold up a convenience store, I doubt they go in there with backup firearms. They plan to go in there shove a gun in someone’s face, get the money and flee. They don’t plan to get into a prolonged shootout so why bring a backup gun? Anyway, if they did have a backup gun they would have already sold it for money anyway.

Many of the high-profile mentally ill shooters however who go on a shooting spree or a suicide march have several weapons with them, and high capacity magazines filled to the brim with extra magazines on their persons…

 

[LordTio3]

Just as an aside...

More and more people have been arrested for armed offenses lately, especially around here, carrying realistic-looking airsoft weapons. They can pick them up for around $20-30 dollars, convince a victim not to take the chance it's not real, and beat the additional "deadly weapon" charge if they are aprehended.

Just something to think about. Definitely not something to bet on.

~LT

 

[franco45]

+1 Countzero

 

[indykappa]

i'm originally from the eastside of indianapolis, and had the (mis)fortune of growing up with quite a few career criminals. from what i can recall, most of those guys carried hi-points, and a few guys had some glocks. i also remember quite a few mouse guns (22s and 25s)

you'd be amazed at some of the logic that some of those guys used. i heard guys say that the larger the caliber "number", the larger the bullet. using this (flawed) logic, some of those guys thought that a .380 (3-digits) was more powerful than a 9mm (1-digit)

when i go back home, i don't run into these guys too often anymore

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Wow this is an amazing thread..Read every response. I have words taken from every bit of everyone to make my response. So it'll sound repetitive. I'm actually on my way out to work right now. I leave my SIG locked in my trunk at a place where they usually swing by and crack a few windows to steal stuff...Damn gamble...

 

[Tom Servo]

Most of them wouldn't know the difference between a G17 and a G39 but if it is black and plastic, it is a Glock to them.

I've actually seen the following guns referred to as "Glocks":

• S&W Sigma series
• Hi-Point firearms
• numerous Taurus makes
• Cobra polymer pistols
• KelTec/Skyy pistols
• Grendel pistols
• S&W 3rd gen autos
• a Steyr GB (yep)
• old Star/Astra pistols, if they had a black finish, aaaannnddd...
• a Luger, which had been painted black.

The old wisdom was that criminals preferred the Ring of Fire guns from the whole Davis/Jennings/Raven axis. Those companies are now largely out of business. If I recall, only Cobra and Jimenez are still around, and many shops refuse to sell them.

In my experience, the most frequently traced guns at retail are the Hi-Point line. It's the main reason we stopped carrying them. Following that are Taurus, the S&W Sigma series, and the Ruger P series. The overall connection? Price.

When I've been able to get information on the situation leading up to the trace being initiated, the majority of guns appear to have been stolen from upstanding owners. Straw purchases make up maybe 10%. We're in a suburban area, so inner city stores might have a different breakdown.

I should mention that trace requests don't necessarily mean that the guns were used in crimes. A trace can be initiated for any number of reasons.

 

[C0untZer0]

^ this doesn't make sense, if the main source of firearms for criminals is theft from upstanding owners then I would imagine there should be a mix of all sorts of different brands - but it should generally reflect sales figures - meaning if Brand XYZ has the highest sales figures to the public then it should be represented statistically similarly in the criminal community by theft (besides the 10% straw-purchasing)

However, it totally makes sense that Hi-Points would be a firearm many criminals use. Why use an expensive firearm when you may have to ditch the weapon anyway?

Maybe the figures are scewed for your store due to location...

Why did you drop Hi-Points due to retail traces? Are retail traces labor intensive?

 

[Tom Servo]

this doesn't make sense, if the main source of firearms for criminals is theft from upstanding owners then I would imagine there should be a mix of all sorts of different brands

True. My guess is that a person who's into Sig pistols, S&W revolvers, and high-end 1911's is probably someone who's going to store his guns securely. These folks take their responsibilities seriously.

On the other hand, the guy who buys a cheap pistol as a "car gun" is going to get it stolen out of his glove box if he leaves it in there all the time. I'm always leery of the idea that "well, if it gets stolen, I'm not out $500."

Maybe the figures are scewed for your store due to location.

They very well could be. A pawn shop in an inner city area will likely have a different demographic, and a different set of circumstances.

Part of the reason I brought this up is that it's very difficult to form a cogent picture of how criminals acquire their weapons. Compare the traces from Jim's EZ Payday Loans and Guns in Chicago to those from Bob's Hardware in rural Tennessee, and you're going to get two very different scenarios.

Why did you drop Hi-Points due to retail traces? Are retail traces labor intensive?

They aren't particularly labor intensive, no. If the books are straight (and for many dealers, that's a big "if"), you can pull the form and fax it in in about ten minutes. The problem arises when you start getting a high number of guns traced back to your business. Then, suspicions arise, questions get asked, and things could get hairy.

We usually don't know why a gun is being traced, but every one could be a crime gun. Nobody wants to hear that a gun they sold was used to hurt someone, no matter how judicious they may have been in selling it.

 

[Glenn Dee]

Hey Dardanos.

Ummm I cant agree with your conclusions. Bad guys are like the rest of society in that they are to some degree individuals. The idea that Bad guys use cheap, and rusty guns does not track with my experience. The most violent and dangerous criminals (IMO) ply their trade in urban centers that tend to be unfriendly to gun ownership. Like NYC or Chicago, or Philly L/A even.

Now this is only my experience in one such city... but many criminals take pride in their guns as much as any of us do. One of the most beautiful guns I've ever seen was taken from a hit man ( a 6" model 19 Blue engraved revolver). Another perfect specimin of a walther PPk/s was taken from a young woman who shot people in the head for money. My experience is that some criminals take great pains to hide their guns so that when arrested they wont lose the gun and they can send someone, or come back for it later. As I mentioned in an earlier post I raided the home of a shooter and found issues upon issue of gun magazines. To think that the average bad guy is gun ignorant is folly. I dont think the average bad guy is more gun ignorant than the average civilian shooter. An some a lot more gun savvy than the average policeman.

Being a gun guy myself I always tried to have a gun related conversation with everyone I arrested with a gun. Especially those where the gun wasnt the basis of the arrest.

Spuk!

 

[Single Six]

I've been in LE since 1989. Out of all the handgun-armed punks I've dealt with, exactly one was carrying a very nice stainless Colt 1911, which of course, was stolen. All the rest were toting Lorcins and Hi Points. As has already been stated, ALL of them carried their hardware tucked in their waistbands; not a holster among them anywhere.

 

[Eagleks]

About every story I read, they were carrying a Glock. I have to laugh when they say, the "gunman's gun malfunctioned or they " ..... LOL.

 

[Rj1972]

By Noreaster: The hardest thing for them to get is ammo. It's not unusual to confiscate guns that are not fully loaded.

It's funny i was thinking about this after I saw your post. I thought how odd as around here it's pretty easy to get ammo.

So I just happened to be watching cops last night. they pull a car over and end up pulling a revolver out of the car. I can't remember the make/model, but was shocked to hear that it was loaded with 2 rounds. 2 rounds

They didn't say the other rounds had been shot (which I assume they would). So it must have been loaded with only 2 rounds. Crazy.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

The overwhelming consideration for criminal choice of firearms, ammunition, and the means of acquiring both is convenience. They have a marked tendency to use what's available to them.

 

[.357SIG]

I've seen them from one end of the spectrum to the other; nice guns and beat-up pieces of crap. I've seen a lot of SIGs and Glocks recovered, some stolen police guns, etc. There are those with cheap .22 and .25 autos as well. I know of one guy who got busted with a Glock 33, loaded with 125 gr. Gold Dots...and that gun was returned to me in perfect condition soon after. In fact, the guy took off my Pearce +0 and replaced it with a Pearce +1. Lots of semi-auto rifles as well.

 

[icedog88]

Not sure I agree with most opinions on here. The guys I knew on "the other side" were pretty proud of their weapons. True, there was an array, but for the most part, the dealers had some very impressive stuff. Kinda like their cars, expensive is better to them. Status symbols. Whether or not the rounds in the gun are what you would call quality or not, they have the potential to kill. The reason some guys don't have full mags or cylinders could be to "prove" to others that they have used the gun, thereby gaining cred or reps.

 

[.357SIG]

Not sure I agree with most opinions on here.

Just like everything else, there's going to be more to it than one person sees or hears about from a few guys. Even what some of us have seen in LE is limited to where we work. In general, you won't find a crackhead with a flashy, expensive piece for status; they want something that they can use for protection and/or robbery, but is cheap enough not to cry over when they toss it away running from the law. When speaking of drug distributors, or high-level gang members, I can see your point. When dealing with street-level criminals, they will most often take what they can get their hands on to do the job. Some do want this or that piece, caliber, etc., but most couldn't care less.

OTOH, those people you speak of definitely do exist, and every person is different from the rest, so a "general rule" doesn't mean it has no exceptions. There are probably low-level crackheads who browse these and other gun boards to get an idea of the best gun for them.

 

[LSP972]

Man; lots of... interesting... posts in this thread.

I work in a major crime lab. I see, every day, what the cops are taking off the streets.

Post #49 has it right (at least, here in the deep south). The number one contender is Hi-Point, followed by the S&W Stigma and various Tauri tied for second place. Rugers and Glocks are a distant third and fourth.

The so-called "Saturday Night Specials" (cheap foreign .22 revolvers- Clerke, et. al.- and domestic trash such as Lorcin, Davis, Jennings, etc.) are quite rare these days.

I processed 25 seized handguns today. They had been collected over a two-week period this month. The breakdown:

Hi-Point 5
Stigma 5
Tauri 4
Ruger 4
Glock 3
1911 (Colt 1991A1) 1
Sig P226 1
SCCY CSX-1 1
S&W M&P 1

Not a "Saturday Night Special" in the lot. In fact, the last one I saw was a Jiminez J.A. Nine, some five or six days ago. We get guns in five days a week.

IOW, the bad guys around here are becoming more up-to-speed in their weaponry. The one silver lining in that dark cloud is that their level of "maintenance" is poor to non-existent. But the homicide rate in Baton Rouge tells us that the guns are working well enough...

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