Pushing .357 cast above max load data

[Unclenick]

I've looked at the work that Lee carried out regarding pressure and bullet hardness and was hoping that because this was carried out before the powder coating fad, it applied only to plain lubed lead bullets and somehow powder coating might make a small difference in lead resistance performance.

It would have to be both harder and very thick at the base to do much in that department. However, you are right about the smooth bores of the hand-assembled S&W revolvers made between the WW's.

You should slug your bore and measure its diameter rather than guess. You do need a pure lead slug so it isn't springy. The Hornady round balls work. 22 rimfire standard velocity bullet alloy is generally soft enough so that if you cast a slug from it, it is malleable and inelastic enough to work.

For that matter, you might consider making a chamber cast, too, and looking at the freebore. I've found my Marlins like bullets about groove +0.002" better than the usual +0/001", but YMMV. I've found my Tumble Lube bullets shoot best as-cast; no sizing. But the coating would necessarily change that if I were using it.

Before they relaxed the MSDS reporting requirements, the alternate names used to appear in them. From 2009 versions of MSDSs, I culled the following information:

Powders from 2009 MSDS sheets (some newer MSDS sheets lack the powder name information due to
changes in MSDS requirement regulations).

Note that bulk grade versions have wider burn rate specs and can vary significantly from the
canister grades, which are controlled for burn rate by blending with held back fast or slow 
lots, as needed to adjust them to within ±3% of their nominal burn rates.

     Canister      | Bulk Grade |       Canister         | Canister |      Canister        |
      Grade        |            |        Grade           |  Grade   |       Grade          |
                   | St. Marks  |                        |          |                      |
     Hodgdon       | Mil & OEM  |      Winchester        | Thales   |        IMR           |
___________________|__Numbers___|________________________|__(ADI)___|______________________|_
                   |            |                        |          |                      |
HP-38--------------|-- OBP231 --|- 231 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP124   |  AALite (WFL)          |          |                      |
Titewad            |   OBP132   |                        |          |                      |
Tightgroup --------|-- OBP242 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP465   |  Super-Handicap (WSH)  |          |                      |
Longshot           |   OBP473   |                        |          |                      |
Lil' Gun ----------|-- OBP516 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
Hybrid 100V        |   SHP771   |                        |          |                      |
                   |   SMP224   |  AutoComp              |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WAA90 --|- WST ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H110               |    WC296   |  296                   |          |                      |
HS-6               |    WC540   |  540                   |          |                      |
HS-7               |    WC571   |  571                   |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WC748 --|- 748 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H414               |    WC760   |  760                   |          |                      |
H335               |    WC844   |                        |          |                      |
BL-C(2)------------|--- WC846 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H380               |    WC852   |                        |          |                      |
US869              |    WC869   |                        |          |                      |
-------------------|-- WMR780 --|- Supreme 780 ----------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   WXC170   |  WSF                   |          |                      |
Clays              |            |                        |  AS30N   |                      |
International Clays|------------|------------------------|- AS50N --|----------------------|-
Universal Clays    |            |                        |  AP70N   |                      |
H4227              |            |                        |  AR2205  |IMR 4227 second source|
H4198 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2207 -|----------------------|-
                   |            |                        |   BM1    |                      |
H322               |            |                        |  AR2219  |                      |
Benchmark          |            |                        |   BM2    |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2210 -|- IMR 8208 XBR -------|-
H4895              |            |                        |  AR2206H |                      |
Varget             |            |                        |  AR2208  |                      |
H4350 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2209 -|----------------------|-
H4831              |            |                        |  AR2213  |                      |
H4831SC            |            |                        | AR2213SC |                      |
H1000 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2217 -|----------------------|-
Retumbo            |            |                        |  AR2225  |                      |
H50BMG             |            |                        |  AR2218  |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2215 -|IMR 4198 second source|
                   |            |                        |  AS25BP  |IMR Trail Boss        |

In my experience, pistol marksmen don't use cast rounds. Too many variables at play for consistent accuracy.

I shot NRA Bull's-eye matches for many years, and cast bullets dominated the centerfire and 45 phases all down the line. Some used swaged bullets. Almost nobody fired commercial JSWC's because of the expense. I've sandbagged a good number of 1" 25-yard groups with them. They have to be made well, of course. Find a supplier you trust and you may be surprised how well they can work. Have beat commercial swaged bullets with them many times in side-by-side comparisons.

 

[gwpercle]

Keeping an eye open for the "report back" ... would like to know how well triple coated bullets work for OmegaSpeedy .
Only accurate loads are interesting loads .
My thought is the brass case is the weak link in a over max. load , I'm interested to see if extraction will be a problem or not .
Gary

 

[gwpercle]

4/29/2021 - Still no report back .

I wonder if the triple coated bullets and above maximum loads worked out ...

Gary

 

[pete2]

I don't know what ADI powder is. I have shot hard cast bullets per Lyman loading data that are as fast as jacketed dats. These were lubed bullets cast of straight lino type metal. Very accurate at 50yards, were fired in handguns(44 Mag.) with open sights, I only shot a few at 100 as I couldn't get a good sight picture at 100 so I don't know how accurate a SWC is at 100. (NM SBH ,bullet was cast in a Lyman 245 gr. mold, actual weight was about 235 cast from Lino, 2400 powder, load used is over the current max. loads).

 

[Unclenick]

I believe ADI used to be Australian Defense Industries. It is owned by Thales now. The ADI numbers are not imported into this country under the ADI brand, but rather are imported by Hodgdon and packaged and sold with the Hodgdon numbers shown above.

 

[5whiskey]

In my experience, pistol marksmen don't use cast rounds. Too many variables at play for consistent accuracy.

My experience is the exact opposite. I dare say most serious bullseye pistol competitors shoot cast bullets. I’ve loaded cast for years, best groups in EVERY pistol I own are from cast.

 

[pete2]

5whiskey is right. A lot if not a majority of Bullseye shooters shoot cast, SWCs. Need 2" or less groups at 50 yards.

 

[5whiskey]

^^^ Pete if I could only get my home cast to shoot even close to as good as Dardas cast bullets did. I hate Matt retired but I understand too. Dardas bullets were quite good and have won a good number of matches (not with me shooting them). I’m getting better at home casting and powder coating. They’re starting to look good. Not professional but pretty good. My boollits usually shoot on par with most good factory loadings now, and a good bit better than standard range fodder. I would be more proud of that statement if I didn’t have a cull rate approaching 15%.

 

[pete2]

I miss Dardas too. I didn't shoot bullseye with them I I did shoot a lot of them tho, IDPA and practice. I used to shoot Rucker cast bullets in bullseye. Rucker is local but they are very good. I haven't shot much coated, playing with some Brazos 9MM Hi Tech coated bullets right now but don't even have a 9 MM bullseye gun. They seem ok but it's too early to tell.
I've always considered Conventional lubed cast bullet to be more accurate than plated or powder coated bullets but I've never really played with them in an accurate bullseye gun to see what they will really do. I shoot outside so smoke isn't a problem.
I quit casting my own bullets years ago. I had real good results with straight lino in the .44 mag. Under 2" at 50 yards with full mag loads. It's a little hard to cast "perfect" bullets but they don't have to be perfect for most purposes.

 

[gwpercle]

Casting "Good" bullets isn't rocket science ... I do it But , it is time consuming .
An open top pot, two, three or four cavity mould , spouted dipper for pressure casting , filling cavities one at a time ... man that is S-L-O-W production and a big time competitor just doesn't have the time to devote to making bullets ... he has to buy them and factory produced bullets will be better for his needs .
I did a little NRA Indoor Bullseye Target shooting in the 1970's -1980's , we shot on Wednesday nights and broke matches up into 22 cal one night , 38 cal another and 45 cal on another . That left weekends to cast and reload ammo ... Bullseye courses don't require that much ammo ... 30 rounds I believe it was ... 10 rounds each slow , timed and rapid fire . So for that game casting and reloading was doable ... but other competitions and there is no way for a competitor to carefuly cast , cull , size , lube and load all his own ammo ...just no time .
But if you have time ... you can carefully cast good bullets .
Gary