Public cries for more cowboy movies, guns, and lore!

[maillemaker]

I shoot N-SSA. I agree it is a sport of old, white men. I'm probably one of the 5 youngest there at 46. Most guys are 65+ and retired. A couple of women also shoot.

Cost and time is certainly a concern. Many of our competitions start on Friday afternoon with individual shooting at targets. While there is also individual shooting on Saturday morning, it is hard to do 4 guns in 4-5 hours, though it can be done especially if you do no re-entries. But Friday shooting makes it much more relaxed. That means vacation time.

Then there is the cost of competing. My ammo costs me about $.30 a shot. I make up 100 rounds per gun and shoot about 75% of it. So figure $100 in ammo for 4 guns. It's $25 a night for camping so that's another $50. About $60 in gas to drive the RV down and back. Say $50 in food. $25 for individual targets, and about $7 per team event so $28 to shoot 4 team events. Works out to about $340 for the weekend. Every other month of the year.

And this is just for a "daddy activity". When you have a wife and children, you have to start asking yourself (and your wife and kids will be asking themselves) whether this expense is really fair for just daddy to go have fun by himself for the weekend. Yeah, mom and the kids can come along "camping" but that really just means mommy babysitting in and around the RV while daddy is down at the range having fun. Contrast this with taking the family camping for a weekend or buying a boat and the family spending the weekend out on the lake boating and fishing together.

The middle class in this country is shrinking. People have less and less disposable income. 42% of the country makes $10/hour or less. 47% of people with an income don't make enough income to have to pay income tax on it. More and more young people are coming out of college with their "disposable" income being tied up in student loans.

It's getting harder to find young people with both the interest and the time and the money to participate.

Then there is the demographics problem. It has been said that if you look around any NRA convention and you will see a sea of white and grey hair. The torch of the second amendment is mostly born by older Americans. I did not vote for him, but I was surprised but pleased to see Trump win in that at least the 200 or so justices he has to appoint will probably be pro-2A, and so the second amendment may be protected for another generation. But I don't have much confidence in this to last indefinitely. My feeling is that the younger generation skews left on most social issues. And since the second amendment's champions are on the right, this does not bode well for what is going to happen as the baby boomers start dying off. My hope is that we make inroads with firearms and shooting sports with young left-leaning people. But I don't have a lot of confidence in that happening. I hope I'm wrong.

Steve

 

[themalicious0ne]

I don't think the demographic is the main issue. I am young and know lots of young people. Maybe 50/50 fall pro 2A and the others opposed. I can also tell you that 99% of those buying Guns that I know are buying ccw, ar's, shotguns, double stack 9's, or bolt rifles. I can tell you that if those I talk to on a daily basis own 100 Guns. Maybe 5 of those, tops, could be used in cas. And I know of only 1 that is a saa. That is the issue. If you let any of those people compete in cas with 1 gun, then you may have more willing to compete. You can only realistically use any of those guns for hunting. I don't mean that as a slight. I can use my ccw for carry, idpa, 3 gun, pin league, etc. I can use my ar for HD, high power, 3 gun, carbine courses, etc. I can use a shotgun for HD, shotgun courses, hunting birds or deer, etc. Not that cas guns can't be used for that but they aren't as versatile.

Edit: Also more women are into guns than ever.

 

[Pathfinder45]

I like Old West stuff; the guns and other trappings and the history, even a decent movie. However, some of the films are just too ridiculous for me. When I had the opportunity to see the videos of Quentin Tarantino's western films, I quickly realized that I had more important things to do. But he made money on them, and apparently, that's a lot more important than any resemblance of authenticity.
As far as the cowboy-shooting-games go, I only have outside opinions that certainly have very limited validity. I do think that a real 45 Colt from the old days launches a 250-255 grain bullet with a lot more power than the ammo they are using in their games, but I don't play and probably won't.

My only center-fire handgun is a 45 Colt Vaquero. I can't afford a lot of guns, so I only have what matters to me. I don't shoot at gun ranges. I shoot in the woods. Whenever I don't have to be elsewhere, I'm in the woods, on and off-trail; usually with a back-pack and fishing rod, often in designated wilderness, always backwoods, sometimes with a rifle, but the 45 Vaquero is my constant companion. For such purposes, there is no better handgun than a solid single-action revolver. My light target loads run 255 grain cast bullets at 850 fps, but my main woods-load runs the same bullet at 1075 fps.

If you want Old West lore with authenticity, you pretty much need to read it from reliable historical sources. The last film I saw of the Old West that had some authenticity to history, was The Revenant, although it too, diverged from some of the facts; still, it was worth watching. I enjoyed the Deadwood series enough to watch it twice; but you can't watch that one with young children.

I don't think the Western genre will go away, but it's past its heyday. For it to have a Rennaissance, I think it would need to focus on gripping, true tales, that are credible, and difficult to walk away from. The real Old West, still has a lot of stories that either haven't been told well, or haven't been told at all.

 

[g.willikers]

If the old Wild West was presented as it really was, most folks wouldn't want any part of it, even in a movie.
The dirt, disease, bad food, hard scrabble life, and easy dying would hardly be attractive.
Civilization was a long time coming.
As Tom Horn sez, in the movie with Steve McQueen, the old west could be summed up with one phrase, "Raggedy-Arse."

 

[JACKlangrishe]

^ For those reasons exactly, I'd recommend anyone in this thread that hasn't seen Deadwood, make it a priority. As mention earlier by Pathfinder45, the language is quite explicit so it's not something you'd want to gather the kiddies around the TV to watch.

No buckets of blood and Tarantino Kung Fu physics.
Just sheer lawless terror.

 

[shootbrownelk]

We long for western movie classics like the Magnificent Seven with Brenner, McQueen, Coburn, Bronson,and Vaughn and what does Hollywood give us? A cheezy remake of the original, with DENZEL WASHINGTON playing Yul Brenner's part.....YUCK!

 

[4V50 Gary]

While there were black cowboys and even a black deputy marshal, gun-fighters were few and far between. Many town folk and farmers were Civil War veterans and I doubt if they were craven cowards incapable of defending themselves like many movies show.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First off, several have decried the money needed to outfit oneself in a costume. This is not necessary, one can get outfitted very inexpensively by wearing a pair of jeans and a long sleeved shirt. Just observe the rule about no sneakers or ball caps.

To those who wish to change the rules of the game so they can enter - good luck.

Can you name any other sport that changes the rules so folks who are not properly equipped can play?

We often get questions about why can't I shoot this or that?

We don't allow lever guns in 'rifle' calibers because they would destroy the targets. We shoot at steel. We have velocity limits so the targets do not get destroyed. That is why rifles are restricted to 'pistol' calibers such as 45 Colt or 44-40. If all you have is a Winchester '94 chambered for 30-30, sorry, but it will destroy the steel targets.

Same with rimfires. We do allow youngsters to shoot rimfires. But adults must shoot centerfire. The reason is simple. We score by counting hits. A rimfire may simply not make enough impact on the target to be seen.

Regarding setting up special events so that somebody can come and just shoot pistols, or what ever. Sorry, but it is enough work to put on a match in the first place. It is all done by volunteers, nobody gets paid. So setting up a parallel match for shooters who are not fully equipped is asking an awful lot.

Quick draw is a completely separate discipline, shot with wax bullets. We shoot live ammo with real bullets in CAS, and nobody should be trying quick draw with live ammo. Good way to shoot yourself in the foot. Also, quick draw requires specialized electronic equipment that CAS clubs do not own.

But most of you who are decrying the expense of the guns are overlooking the simple fact that CAS shooters are very friendly. All you have to do is show some interest, and someone will supply you with whatever you don't have. You don't have to run out an buy it all at once. I went a year borrowing pistols from a friend for my wife because I had not yet bought her a pair. All you have to do is a little bit of homework. You look up where there is a match near you, you call the match director and ask him to set you up with someone who will supply you with what you need.

Then if you like the sport, you buy what you can when you can afford it.

Plenty of guys have gotten started that way.

 

[Hawg]

CAS is fun and like DJ said it doesn't cost a lot to dress the part unless you just want to go full on period. Jeans and a long sleeve collarless work shirt, a pair of work boots without lugs on the soles and a thrift shop Stetson. You can forego the hat but being out in the sun you'll wish you hadn't. It was too far to go for me and work interfered with it too. You use a lot of ammo so reloading is a must. CAS is all about speed. The targets are fairly big and close but don't think for a minute you can shoot as fast as you can and never miss. CAS also has some funky rules as far as guns that are allowed but what irked me the most was the power level of the loads. Some of those guys load so light they can almost fire five shots before the first bullet makes it to the target.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The other reason to wear a wide brimmed hat is so you don't get hot brass ejected from your rifle down your neck. Trust me on this.

What many casual observers of CAS fail to realize is there is more than one way to play the game.

Yes, the scores are based on speed, which means that top competitors will be shooting reduced loads to minimize recoil. But there are a few of us who march to a different drummer.

I really don't give a hoot how well I do in the competition, and everybody who shoots with me that knows that. I am in the minority, but I only shoot Black Powder in CAS. My 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges and 12 gauge shotgun shells are stuffed to the gills with Black Powder, and they roar and kick just like the originals did. I do not try for speed, I try to hit every target. For me, the object of the game is to get a clean match. Which is more difficult than you might think, given how close the targets usually are.

I collect firearms, and although I don't do it every time, a few times a year I will bring along a real S&W Top Break and Merwin Hulbert made in the 1880s. My regular Main Match shotgun is an old Stevens made around 1908. And although my 1860 Henry is an Italian import, I have a couple of original Winchester Model 1873 rifles that come along a few times a year too. Did I mention that my usual main match pistols are a mismatched pair of 2nd Gen Colts?

Another thing the casual observer does not realize is the camaraderie of CAS shooters. I have dozens of friends I have made over the years because of this sport. Shooting a local match is an opportunity to spend the day with friends.

Yes, I grew up watching Marshall Dillon shoot down Arvo Ojala every Sunday night and loved watching all the oatburners of the day on TV. My dad had to actually take me aside at one point to tell me that nobody wears guns in the west anymore.

I always say that where else do you get to wear a cowboy hat, walk around with a couple of sixguns strapped onto your belt, and say 'Howdy' all day?

Yes, CAS numbers are down from the heyday a few years ago. Is it dying? Not hardly.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

What has always appealed to me was the open scenery of the West shown in those old Western movies. (True Grit /Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid) How thrilling such areas must have been to ride horse-back thru before housing tracts sprouted up doting those awe-inspiring areas like unwanted weeds.

 

[themalicious0ne]

Please understand, I was not trying to bash Cowboy Action Shooting. I loved it and I agree the community is absolutely wonderful.

I know you do not have to go all out with the gear but I personally would like to. I dont think the game should change, just that there should be more options. I agree with the steel targets and that you obviously cant use centerfire rifle rounds found on most auto's on them. I just think if they opened stages that you could compete with only 1 of the aforementioned guns that you could garner more interest in getting people to join.

Maybe have a high power rifle competition with cas guns only, on paper, and let the 30-30's shoot. Or just a short course with a single revolver. I dont think the game should change, just that they should have more options.

When someone might be interested in cowboy action shooting and look it up online, they see these rules and equipment lists. That is a big commitment and may deter them from coming to a match even though someone may borrow them the equipment.

I am a caveman and never looked up CAS online, an elderly gentleman told me about a match in my town. I has a Ruger New Vaquero so I figured that would be fun. Upon going, everyone was dressed up, the stages were so awesome, I picked a name. and then I realized I did not have all the gear required and I couldnt shoot so I said I would watch. Someone fully supplied me. I didnt have ammo or even cash on me to pay the entry fee. This elderly gentleman paid my $20, let me shoot 150 rounds of his ammo with his guns, wear his belt. It was the first ever encounter I had ever had in the gun community outside of gun shops and the range. I was in love. I have not been back because I KNOW the community is that amazing and I dont want to burn through someones ammo that they reloaded. (I do need to go back again and watch)

That is my entire point though. Not many people go unless they hear word of mouth and if they look it up online, they cant pay to play. I dont know about you but when I see something awesome like that, I want to be a part of it. It just is a long road to get that stuff. But like I said, if someone with one of those guns could just shoot a match with 24 handgun rounds or 20 rifle rounds and see how amazing it is, they may WANT to buy the gear to join in.

Think of it like skiing. (as a poor analogy) I want to ski, I dont fly to Colorado, buy the best gear and pay a $200 lift ticket for the day to ski. I go to the local bunny hill where I can play around and learn and watch the people doing tricks and flying down the hill while I can participate on the cheap. If I want to eventually buy into the trip and gear, etc. I can.

That is what I meant by my implication. Not to change the way it is but to add on to garner more interest at a more reasonably financial level.

Edit: Think in the terms of college kids like I was at the time. I was lucky to buy 1 gun a year at best and not 4 digit priced guns either. That next year do I buy another saa, or a sxs or a lever? Or do I buy a gun I can work armed security with, or a CCW, or a rifle that I can use for HD, High Power, etc. Sure those CAS guns can be used for those things too but it depends on priority. And maybe I would purchase 1 CAS gun to fill one of those rolls, but when you talk about purchasing only for the purpose of shooting CAS over the next 4 years... its a hard pill to swallow. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

 

[maillemaker]

In the NSSA, you are only required to shoot Musket. All other weapon types are optional. They are now also experimenting with a limited Individual membership, which would allow you to shoot individual (paper) targets without participating in the team events. Right now you have to join a team after a year though, I think.

Steve

 

[shootbrownelk]

4V50 Gary, I didn't mean to imply that the remake of the Magnificent Seven sucked because of a Black playing the lead role if that's what you thought. I can't stand Denzel Washington and wouldn't enjoy his acting no matter what his color. The Movie just plain sucked, and Denzel just helped it along the road to Suckdom. You read something into my post that wasn't there.

 

[foolzrushn]

shootbrownelk

I didn't get that from Gary's post. What I read was a comment on the number or frequency of gunfighters, and the portrayal of the common folk.

But then I have liked some of Denzel's roles. Crimson Tide comes to mind.

 

[maillemaker]

Oh, man, I think Denzel has rocked some roles. I liked him in Glory, Flight, and others.

Steve

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I know you do not have to go all out with the gear but I personally would like to. I dont think the game should change, just that there should be more options. I agree with the steel targets and that you obviously cant use centerfire rifle rounds found on most auto's on them. I just think if they opened stages that you could compete with only 1 of the aforementioned guns that you could garner more interest in getting people to join.

Maybe have a high power rifle competition with cas guns only, on paper, and let the 30-30's shoot. Or just a short course with a single revolver. I dont think the game should change, just that they should have more options.

I already explained to you why there are not more options. CAS matches are run by volunteers, and it is tough enough to get enough guys to run a standard match, much less start adding complication to the match by adding special categories and catering to shooters who have special requirements.

It's not skiing. You wouldn't bring a rifle to a Trap field, would you?

Large annual matches will often have a separate long range competition for long range rifles, such as 45-70 and 38-55. A lever gun chambered for 30-30 would probably be fine. But these competitions usually only occur at big annual matches, not your regular monthly match. Long range competition, pocket pistol competitions and other specialties will take place one day out of a three day match, the other two days will be devoted to the standard CAS match. Most matches do not have a long range competition, it is extra work, and many clubs don't have a facility for a long range match anyway. CAS matches usually take place in action bays, there simply is not room for a long range rifle match, even if you could get it staffed.

 

[salvadore]

I was interested in the cow poke game years ago. After watching you tube vids of wowsers shooting their .32 calibers at 400fps with their howdy woody outfits it's appeal softened. I wouldn't be surprised if the participants died off and likewise the "game" died.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Videos usually only show the fastest competitors shooting very light loads. Because that is what the video game generation wants to see. That is not what a real match is like. There is much more variation than you will see in the typical video. Try coming around when my Pards and me are blasting away with Black Powder.

 

[ZVP]

I have to comment on Black
Powder being nearly a requirement!
Nothing sounds the same but (the thunderous BOOM!) or recoils as smooth or billows clouds of sulphur laden fumes! Just nothin no like it!
You surely can't complain about BP being underpowered either! I'm sure smokeless makes more suds, but you can't fault a 22?grain charge pushing and 36 caliber ball! No wonder Hickock relied on his Navy's!
Well I'm too retired to have the cash to be very realistic as a BP shooter but that dosen't keep me from appreciating the "Breed" and it's unique difference from Smokeless guns.
I'm sure glad shooters are open minded enough to see you shooting your S&W model 10, then hauling out a '58 Remington for your next round!
My hat is als off to the manufacturers of today's high quality reproductions!
Take em out and shoot em Boys!