Psychotropic Drugs - Any Serious Investigation??

[Jeff Thomas]

Neal Knox raises the issue that the Wakefield murderer was also on psychotropic drugs.

We've heard this about one of the shooters at Columbine, and many other shooters in the various school incidents. Other than some discussion here and there, I really don't recall seeing any serious investigation of this potential connection.

As Knox says, "To find a solution to any problem, look for the variable that is new or has changed." Shotguns aren't new. Semiautomatic pistols aren't new. AK's were placed into service in 1947, and have been in the US for a long time. Troubled companies aren't new. Kids being teased in school and having challenges growing up? Please ... how many of us remember days like that?

So, what's new? Indeed, the tendency to drug so many people, especially kids, as part of psychiatric treatment seems much more prevalent now. And, with a large variety of drugs.

So, as RKBA supporters we have a strong tendency to wonder about this potential connection. But, are we the only ones? Isn't the LEO community seriously interested in this potential connection? I'm sure the psychiatric profession and the drug companies aren't looking forward to this discussion, but Lord - how can this escape serious study?

Or, has this already been seriously investigated? If so, by whom, and with what result?

This is a very, very serious question. Much of the 'state' and the 'press' is fixated upon tracing the guns, examining gun laws, etc. But, from my perspective, this may be like going to the doctor with a broken leg, and having him spend all his time looking in my ear. Are we 'creating' more murderers everyday ... at a drugstore near you, or near me?

Anyone have a handle on this? Thanks.

Regards from AZ

 

[hammer4nc]

I've heard this guy was under psychiatric care. My first reaction, when I heard that, was here we go again...another Prozac monster! I had some first-hand experience with an ex-girlfriend using Zoloft (another commonly prescribed anti-depressant), and it was scary. Seemed to push her behavior to extremes (both good and bad), but was unpredictable. I studied the physicians desk reference at the library, for this class of drugs (seratonin uptake inhibitors, IIRC), and the list of side effects would knock your socks off!

At the same time, she could have a bad day, and call practically any general practitioner MD, and after a brief office visit complaining of "stress" (maybe not even that, just show up at the receptionists desk), walk out with a prescription in 15 minutes. Easy to get.

Maybe some doctors or counselors out there could enlighten us as to the prevelance and dangers of these psychotropics, and how it relates to this case, once the specific facts are made known.

 

[johnbt]

I'm supposed to be packing for a duck hunt...

...but I have worked with individuals with almost every kind of disability for 26 years and have seen a variety of reactions to psychotrophic drugs, including the mild ones like Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Some folks get better, some get worse. Typically, a number of drugs are prescribed, one after the other, to find a useful treatment with minimal side effects.

I will have to think about condensing what I've seen when I get back, but for now I'll summarize from the Prozac entry in the 47th edition/1993 of the Physician's Desk Reference. Page 944, Precautions:

General - Anxiety and Insomnia - Anxiety, nervousness, and insomnia were reported by 10% to 15% of patients treated with Prozac. These symtoms led to discontinuation in 5% of patients treated with Prozac.

Altered weight - ...in clinical trials 9% experienced anorexia.

Activation of Mania/Hypomania - During premarketing testing, hypomania or mania occurred in approximately 1% of treated patients.

Seizures - ...12 out of 6,000 in the premarketing development.

Suicide - The possibility of a suicide attempt is inherent in depression and may persist until significant remission occurs. Close supervision of high risk patients should accompany initial drug therapy.
_________

Farther down the page is a section on Interference with Cognitive and Motor Performance - Any psychoactive drug may impair judgment, thinking, or motor skills.

_________

Me again. Okay, so problems were reported. To be fair, if you read the PDR you'll find a laundry list of problems with every drug listed in its 2600-plus pages.

One way to think about it is to consider a person with serious mental/emotional problems. A person so hopelessly conflicted or depressed that week after weeek they just can't get up off the sofa and do much of anything. Round and round they go - inside their head.
Then they get meds to help them feel better and what do you get?
Someone with just enough energy freed up to ACT on (or act out) their feelings (or delusions, hallucinations, anger, whatever.)

I'm out of here, but I'll check back later.

John

 

[Byron Quick]

Jeff,

I don't know of any studies off hand. After working as a psychiatric nurse for three years, I was discouraged by what I saw. The basic fact of the matter is we're trying to treat people by Russian roulette. Take two identical twins with a psychiatric disorder, give them the same drug treatment regimen. One could get better and one could get worse. Or both better. Or both worse. Or both stay the same. And no scientist on earth can tell you why in any of these cases. We simply don't know enough about the brain yet. A study was done back in the early eighties when they were still large resident populations in state psychiatric hospitals. Three groups on patients were tracked over five years. One group was treated with classic psychoanalysis. One group was treated with drugs. One group was left alone with no treatment. A baseline of each group was done at the beginning of the study and one at the end. All three groups showed improvement at the end of the study. The psychoanalysis group showed the least improvement. The drug group was in the middle. The group that had been left alone with no treatment showed the most improvement. I don't have the references on hand but this is a famous study that one of the Phd's at any psychology department should be aware of. If you want to find it email me and I'll see if I can track it down.

 

[Matt VDW]

I found it interesting that the lawyer (or psychiatrist?) of the Wakefield killer publicly stated that the authorities needed to make sure that his client could continue taking his medication while in jail. My thought: if this guy murdered seven of his co-workers while using whatever drug he's been prescribed, it must not be working very well.

I'm sure the psychiatric profession and the drug companies aren't looking forward to this discussion, but Lord - how can this escape serious study?

I think you just answered your own question. The people who have the information needed to do a study also have an interest in seeing that the drugs continue to be used.

 

[RikWriter]

We definitely don't yet know enough about the human brain to be screwing with its chemistry the way we are. The whole psychiatry field IMHO is mostly just modern witch doctoring.

 

[Byron Quick]

Rikwriter,

You're right...and you're wrong Surgeons didn't know enough at one point to remove an infected appendix or repair your intestines after you'd been shot. Guess how they learned? By trying and screwing up and then trying again using what they learned the last go round until they got it right. It's hard on you if you've got a burst appendix NOW and they don't know how to fix it but you've got to start somewhere. I will agree that the psychiatrists go to the drugs too often and too fast but when all you've got is a hammer all your problems have a tendency to look like nails.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Thanks for all the responses ...

So, the plot thickens.

I wonder this ... are the drug companies and the psychoanalysis professionals taking the following positions:

1. As noted by Spartacus, some of our patients get better on these drugs, and, we make money by prescribing these treatments. [for the moment, Spartacus, we'll ignore the results of that interesting study you cite - sounds like a little 'Hawthorne effect' as well? ]

2. A very small percentage of our patients become homicidal nutcases, and murder people.

3. But, overall, we can argue these drugs are a net benefit to society.

4. So, the solution is to keep prescribing these drugs, and change firearms and other laws so that our small percentage of homicidal nutcases have a tougher time doing a great deal of damage. And, our industry and profession is probably better off if we don't discuss this entire issue.

Although I doubt this is some well thought out effort on behalf of these two industries, I honestly wonder if this is essentially the bottom line. If this is not the case, then I am still left with my burning question of why this is not being carefully investigated.

Thanks for the help in exploring this question. Regards from AZ

 

[RikWriter]

>>You're right...and you're wrong Surgeons didn't know enough at one point to remove an infected appendix or repair your intestines after you'd been shot. Guess how they learned? By trying and screwing up and then trying again using what they learned the last go round until they got it right. It's hard on you if you've got a burst appendix NOW and they don't know how to fix it but you've got to start somewhere. I will agree that the psychiatrists go to the drugs too often and too fast but when all you've got is a hammer all your problems have a tendency to look like nails.<<


Umm, the problem is, if you diagnose and treat a personality disorder incorrectly, you've not only screwed up the patient (possibly for life) but possibly caused him to go off and kill several other people. There are ways to learn about brain chemistry that don't involve trial and error with live patients.

 

[gitarmac]

The pschiatry industry is getting way out of hand and people have become too trusting. I work in the medical field and have brought up the idea that medication has become too much of a crutch. The shrinks become so enraged they brisle with anger. I think they take a lot of thier own drugs.
When my mom died a terrible 3 month death I was depressed too. A freind suggested I "talk to someone" so I did. I wasn't suicidal or dangerous but they thought I should take drugs because "it's easier that way". I though I got a quack so went to someone else who said I was going through menopause and needed drugs or I would become moody, just like she did. I'm not quite old enough for that (yet!). A coworker friend of mine has a grandaughter who's mother took her around till she found someone who would prescribe drugs for the 7 year old child. Since nothing was really wrong with the child it took awhile, but eventually the child was on paxil 2 times a day and dexidrin. The child REALLY started behaving strangly, peeing at school and all.
As a country we are too quick to try the easy way out. Sure some people are helped by these drugs but these shrinks have blinders on, they remind me of antigunners in their zeal and illogical way of thinking.

 

[Monkeyleg]

The following is only anecdotal, but it is relevant. My brother's been quite depressed since he was forced into retirement. A doctor prescribed one of these psychotropic drugs and it wasn't long before my brother was out in his yard with an SKS, claiming the Mafia was out to get him. Now, he's always been a bit quirky, but this was _way_ over the top. Since then, he got off the drugs and he's just depressed.

Dick

 

[Johnny Got His Gun.1]

Maybe some enterprising investigative journalist could find the time to do some real reporting and spearhead a piece on the relationship between these drugs and violent acts committed by their users. (Heck, what's to stop any of us from doing our own investigating and writing it down???)

I just wonder if it would be a meaningful read to the sheeple.

 

[beemerb]

Someplace on the web there is a site that belongs to a doctor(female)who has done a study on these drugs.She claims allmost all of the school shooting was done by kids on drugs prescibed by school doctors.I don't have the site anymore but I will look for it again and if I find it post it.It was well worth reading.The conclusion she came to was that the drugs are doing much more harm then good and should be stoped.

 

[Jody Hudson]

REFERENCES

article on the shooting: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001227/ts/crime_shooting_dc_17.html

An excellent description of psychiatriy and its basic manual. It will help one understand where all the "disorders" have suddenly sprung from.
http://www.ect.org/tattler/dsm.html

Spiral of violence blamed on Prozac:
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Print/0,3858,3973045,00.html

Dr. Ann Blake Tracy; Prozac: Panacea or Pandora?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/20000227_xex_prozac_brpan.shtml

 

[ctdonath]

Consider the consequences of discovering that 100+ deaths in a dozen or so extremely publicized cases were in fact directly (or closely) attributable to a very few, related, highly profitable products...

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Indeed ...

... you would think that some 'enterprising' hack, er ... trial attorney, would be salivating over this prospect. Big drug companies, with billions of dollars to tap ... 'sensational' trials and witnesses ... grievous bodily harm and death, with commensurately huge awards ... it boggles the mind.


So, if there is such a connection, why no attorneys sniffing this out? Why no interest on the part of LEO's and politicians? Is this all BS, or is there some fire behind this smoke?

Regards from AZ

 

[Jody Hudson]

Very good question Jeff!!!

I have heard that there is such a movement of buck-driven lawyers. However from what little I know; the drug companies have incredible assets such as Gore, Bush, Kennedy, Clinton, audio, video and print media, etc. If this is true then we may have little help in sight.

 

[tackdriver]

I'm assuming all of you are trained psychiatrists, right? There are two problems with this discussion: one, everyone seems to be talking out of their rear-ends and two, it's a chicken and the egg argument.
There was one person who admitted to being a nurse and I didn't see any doctors or even students of psychology posting here. The problem is not with psychiatrists overmedicating, the problem is public ignorance and stigmatism of mental disease and overmedication by family physicians lacking adequate psychological training. Many psychological disorders are biological and require medication just as any other biological disorder. It's like asking a nearsighted person to talk about how not being able to see makes them feel versus giving them glasses.
And why is it the drug's fault when someone snaps and goes nuts? Ever think there was a reason why that person was put on meds in the first place? People take medication for high blood pressure and still have heart attacks. Women take birth control and still get pregnant.
Anyone who claims that psychopharmacology is witch doctoring has no idea what they're talking about and certainly hasn't spent the time I have in labs doing research.
Take away your friendly neighborhood shrink and the number of crimes (especially suicides) involving firearms would skyrocket.
(By the way, I'm back)

 

[Jeff Thomas]

tackdriver, you seem a bit sensitive on this issue ...

... does it bother you that we're even discussing this possibility? No harm there, right? Some of these recent incidents give the appearance of a potential connection with psychotropic drugs.

Let's not turn this into a debate about discriminating against the mentally ill. This is a discrete question regarding one class of drugs ... can they, or can they not cause the kind of unstable behavior that may be leading to some of these incidents. That seems like a fair question.

Jody posted a few interesting links ... check them out. Here's another ... http://www.drugawareness.org/


One thing I like about TFL is the ability to ask open-ended questions about unfamiliar subjects. We'll see what some other folks think.

In the meantime, I'm going to chat with a local psychiatrist who is also a CCW holder - he has a good reputation, and it will be interesting to see what perspective he has on the subject.

Regards from AZ

 

[Jody Hudson]

It is certainly NOT necessary to be a psychiatrist to see that they are criminal. Should we in turn only rely on murderers who use knives and clubs, instead of drugs, to discern information about knife and club killing. Or should we only rely on the information from other types of criminals when discussing other crimes. If so then none of us is qualified to discuss any of this except those who are giving drugs to those they know or have met.

Certainly it is possible that some folks are quieted down with mind altering drugs, some are not. I have some working knowledge of mind altering drugs. I was drug abuse officer for a while in the Coast Guard, thirty some years ago and let us all realize that most street drugs are the same drugs as those used by psychiatrists. Some start as street drugs some start as prescription and most become both at some point.

While we can look to psychiatrists for answers let us look to thier text books and directories that THEY use to prescribe drugs. Check the links above or go purchase one and read it. It becomes painfully obvious at that point that the cure has risk factors as high as the "disease" or higher in many cases. The cure factor is unpredictable at best. And the cure is often for the benefit of someone other than the "patient". Most often it is a cure for a doctor's finances or a cure for someone else's difficulty in taking care of a person who might just need more sleep, better food, more exercise, more water, or less threat at home, work, or in life. Seldom is there any sane reason to prescribe the drugs but ablsolutes are hard to obtain, sometimes perhaps there are some folks who should be on some sort of mental poison... perhaps Hitler was one of them...

I have seen too much of those who give drugs to children for instance who get all up in the air over any discussion like this over psychiatric drugging.

I will see if I can find some more references that look a little more scientific than the claim that -- WE have to be part of the psychiatric problem (a drug giver or a drug taker) in order to discuss the problem. I think not.

I think we can learn. I for instance have learned some things about bullets, trajectory, targets, and guns... and I am not nor have I ever been any of those. And, some of us know about dogs, cows, horses and mules and even about breeding them and caring for them -- without having bred them personally or been one of them.

This may be a FUN thread. And let us not forget that it is these psyco-killers and the news that gives them fame, that are used as the reason why me need to not have guns, knives, sling shots, or even in a couple of areas... aluminum baseball bats from what I hear.

There certainly SEEMS to be a cause and effect relationship between psychiatry and insanity -- often in that order.