Problems loading 30-30

[condor bravo]

Tin:
I don't think we really know yet where the problem is since there has not been sufficient feedback from bigarm. We've been assuming for the most part that over crimping pressure has caused the case to buckle beneath the shoulder but bigarm has not commented on that. My latest approach, see post 19, was to suggest the sizing die could be responsible for elongating the case and thereby resulting in failure to chamber. Perhaps bigarm hasn't had the time to check that out yet. We need his feedback to resolve this thing.

 

[bigarm]

Well I am out of town for a few days. I will try to post pictures when I return home. The completed rounds are not chambering, but I did not try to chamber a sized piece of brass. I need to do that. I did check it with a case gauge. The sized brass would pass the case gauge, but the completed rounds would not. The completed rounds stopped with quite a bit of case still out of the gauge which made me believe the problem was after the sizing, but as I said I did not try to chamber the brass after sizing. Thanks for the help so far. We will see what happens when I get back home.

 

[bigarm]

Went back to work on it today. Had a little more luck, but still problems. I put the Dillon powder funnel for the 30 carbine in the powder measure and can bell the case with that, but if I am not VERY careful, one side of the case will get crushed. Not sure why that is happening. I moved the RCBS seating/crimping die to station 3 and seat only with it. I put a Lee factory crimp die in station 4. I will get a finished round or two that pass the case gauge then one that won't fit. I need to work some more with it and see if I can get some consistency. A couple of other things - I bought 50 new pieces of Hornady brass (the only new brass I could find) and used it today. When I size the cases, the empty cases will fit both in the case gauge and the chamber of the rifle, so station 1 does not seem to be a problem. That is the update for far. Not where I want to be but making a little progress.

 

[condor bravo]

Crushing one side of the case neck is somewhat of a common problem and can occur when the case is slightly tilted rather than properly centered when the case is passed over the powder funnel. The edge of the funnel catches an edge of the case mouth and causes the crushing. About the only cure, now that you know it is happening, is to very slowly operate the handle at that stage of the procedure and to make sure that the case is completely upright in the shell plate.

Some of the loaded rounds will pass the case gauge test but others won't. But will the rounds chamber that don't pass the case gauge? If so I would just be satisfied with the way things are and forget about the case gauge. I load for well over 40 rifle cartridges and about the same number of handgun cartridges and have never used a case gauge.

 

[44 AMP]

but if I am not VERY careful, one side of the case will get crushed. Not sure why that is happening.

I don't mean to sound rude, but in my opinion it is happening because you simply aren't using the best tools for the job. And what I mean by that is loading cast bullets in a bottleneck rifle case on a progressive loader.

IT can work. Certainly. But you have to get everything just "right". Progressives are wonderful for short, strait cases, like pistol rounds but have their issues with longer cases. Also, there is the "feel" issue as well.

With a single stage press, you get a feel for things, and can often stop something bad before it ruins a case, or a bullet. You can also do this with a progressive, but unless you are using it as a single stage press, its really tough to notice a minor thing.

The shell plate of the progressive often allows a long (rifle) case to tip more than the shellholder of a single stage press does.

Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it. The "best" set up for loading cast bullets in a .30-30 is a single stage press with a proper expander die for the cast bullets. It should be set so as to just barely flare the case mouth, to prevent shaving lead from the bullet. It should not do anything else. The expander ball in the sizer die handles ensuring the neck ID is correct.

progressives are great for mass producing standard loads. Cast bullets in a .30-30 is more in the "specialty" class, I think. You can do it on a progressive, but you need to watch things very carefully, using more care than loading FMJ 9mm, for example. Personally, I think batch operation with a single stage (or using the progressive as a single stage press) is the way to go when you are doing "specialty" loading. And that means anything that takes more than usual steps and care.

I gave up on the progressive press some time ago. Just not for me. had more troubles and more bad rounds in the few years I used one than in the decades before I got it. I'm back to the single stage press, and doing things in batches. No, I don't turn out as many rounds as quickly, but I am more confident the round I do make will all be good ones.

 

[condor bravo]

I'm also generally against loading rifle cartridges on a 550B and do 95% of rifle loading on single stage presses. Exceptions might be the smaller calibers like the .204 Ruger but I have crushed a few case necks with the B and .204s in particular. Bigarm's equipment is good; just a matter of determining what exactly is going wrong and getting the kinks ironed out. I'm positive that it can be done. So rather than being critical, consider the equipment he has and offer a suggestion to help things along. Whatever the main problem, I would bet that I or others, if sitting in front of the problem, would have it solved in 10 minutes.

 

[hartcreek]

Untill the OP gives us some photos of what is happening we are wasting time speculating. I know the problem is with the operator not the equipment. The operator simply does not have enough experience reloading let alone lead bullets in bottle neck cases on a progressive press.

 

[condor bravo]

Bigarm:

Instead of using your progressive press progressively, for a few rounds run just single cases through the stations to completion and see if that reveals anything or solves any problems. If successful, maybe single stage operation may be the way to go.

I think some of us are still considering the possibility of over crimping. Let us know one way or another if there is a bulge around the case at the junction of the shoulder and case body.

 

[bigarm]

Another update
Talked to Dillon today. They had me take off the shell plate and then loosen the screws below and move it a little to the right. I did that and it seems to have lessened, but not totally eliminated the crushed cases in station 2. I did manage to get some that passed the case gauge. However, I came up with a new problem I have never had before. Not I can't get the powder to drop. I took it apart and put in a different powder die. Did not make a difference. I took it apart and polished the powder funnel with wet/dry sand paper and steel wool. Put it back together and got it to drop powder once and then it stopped again. I gave up for the day. Any suggestions? I will call Dillon again and see what they say. I think I better stay with straight walled cartridges!

Bigarm:

Instead of using your progressive press progressively, for a few rounds run just single cases through the stations to completion and see if that reveals anything or solves any problems. If successful, maybe single stage operation may be the way to go.

I think some of us are still considering the possibility of over crimping. Let us know one way or another if there is a bulge around the case at the junction of the shoulder and case body.

Actually I have been using the Dillon as a single stage in that I have been doing only one cartridge at a time. I do all the steps with the one case, but only have the one case in the press at a time.

 

[condor bravo]

The powder failure to drop problem is probably due to the powder bridging in the powder funnel. What powder is being used? You may have to try a smaller granule powder like 4227 or 4198 which are both recommended powders with the .30-30 and lead bullets (but not jacketed).

I assume that rotating the shell plate slightly was intended to provide better alignment with the powder funnel. But even the best alignment can be fooled if the case is allowed to tip slightly in the shell plate. You should try holding the case solidly at the base when slowly raising the case over the powder funnel.

 

[Pathfinder45]

If you don't weigh every charge, I think you should be using a ball/spherical powder. I like my stick-powders, but I weigh every charge and use a trickler to get them consistent. Ball powders like W-748 and BL-C(2), are some of the best for 30-30 and throw much more consistently from the powder measure than something like IMR-4895.

 

[hartcreek]

or maybe borrow a better powder measure such as a Lyman 55 that will handle all powders.

Better yet buy a single stage press and use it to turn out you rifle rounds till you have done a few thousand so you know how each die is supposed to work before you go back to progeressive loading for rifles.

 

[Rottweiler]

Try switching from the recommended powder die to the powder die for a .30 carbine. I don't have the numbers here hands but the .30 carbine powder die is like a straight walled pistol powder die, it flares the case mouth. The "correct" powder die for a .30-30 does not.

 

[condor bravo]

Bigarm is using the .30 carbine drop tube in the powder measurer; see his post #23. It's like the next problem to overcome is using a fine granule powder that will not bridge in the drop tube. Several have been mentioned like 4227, 4198 and a couple ball powders. I still maintain that this situation can be resolved with the equipment at hand.

Previous posts have mentioned using a different powder measurer like a Lyman or weighing charges but how does one do those things with the 550B press? We may be forgetting what equipment is being used. I'll say it again, I'll bet that if I or others were sitting in front of the problem we would have it solved in 10 minutes.

 

[Rottweiler]

I must have missed that in my first read.

 

[bigarm]

The operator simply does not have enough experience reloading let alone lead bullets in bottle neck cases on a progressive press.

hartcreek
You are correct about not having experience with lead bullets in a bottle neck case, but off 15 years or so on not having any experience with lead bullets. My wife and I were avid cowboy action shooters. All we could shoot were lead. All of the cartridges I currently load for are lead bullets which I cast myself. So I do have a little experience with lead bullets, just not bottle neck cartridges.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Just a thought......

How, "clean", are the insides of your case-necks? If you are seating an oversize bullet, say, .310, into a case neck that hasn't been wire brushed in the prep phase, it could be an unusually tight squeeze. I size my 30-30 cast bullets at .309 with gas checks. I never bell my 30-30 necks, but they are well chamfered. I use a bore-brush on a cordless drill to scrub the necks out before sizing using a sparing amount of lube inside the necks. Next, I trim, then chamfer, then off to the vibratory polisher. I don't shave lead upon seating, but I do it all on a single stage press. Your equipment is meant to produce higher volumes of ammo than I can with my primitive setup....if everything works right. You either have a bug in your equipment or the problem is in your methods. Make sure you are feeding it absolutely perfectly prepared cases, at least until you have ruled that possibility out. If the problem continues, try jacketed bullets; if that ends the problem, then look to your cast bullets, maybe size them smaller. .309 works well for me, but you might have to go down to .308. Good luck finding the bug. I have no doubt there is a solution. I know it can be frustrating when you fix what you thought was the problem when it was really something else and you fix several things that weren't it, before it finally comes together. Cheers, Pathfinder.

 

[bigarm]

The brass used recently was new brass, so the neck should be clean, but could have burrs or something I guess. Something to check out. Dillon is going to send me something to try also.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Always, always, size and trim new brass......