primer seating depth, flush with base, causing misfire problem?

Lee n. field,

When reread, I found I had read your report of Lee's response too quickly, and took it to mean they were claiming flush primers were OK when they actually meant the Lyman shell holder should be OK. Sorry about that.

Note that while seating below flush is the common measure, primer pockets have a tolerance of about ±0.001" in depth, plus the primers themselves have a tolerance in height that includes the anvil feet. If you want to double-check your results, you can measure the depth of your primer pockets and the height of your primers, subtract the latter from the former and add 0.002" for small primers and 0.003" for large primers (Federal's recommendation) to get the total number of thousandths below flush that is ideal for that particular case and primer. In other words, the primer anvil feet touch down on the bottom of the primer pocket, then you compress it by 0.002" or 0.003", depending on primer size. That exact figure is useful to know for precision rifle shooting with depth uniformed primer pockets that may need to be a thousandth or two deeper than commercial standards. But it doesn't hurt even the handgun loader to at least work out the average for their brass and primer lots, and to see their average result meets that computed average, ±0.001". Manufacturers don't do any more than that, and it works for them.

Tula primer cups are similar to CCI cups during the 1980's, before CCI revamped their process to remove cup burrs. They can seat with significant extra resistance, making them more likely to be left high, even when seating force seemed more than adequate. My Dillon Square Deal, which is my permanent .45 ACP press, couldn't seat 1980's CCI primers and can't seat Tula primers reliably. But both Slamfire and I have noted in the past that their rifle primers frequently produce the lowest velocity extreme spreads we can get, beating even Federal match primers in many instances in .308 and .30-06 and .223. So they are worth experimenting with if you can seat them correctly.
 
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lee n. field

New member
Note that while seating below flush is the common measure, primer pockets have a tolerance of about ±0.001" in depth, plus the primers themselves have a tolerance in height that includes the anvil feet. If you want to double-check your results, you can measure the depth of your primer pockets and the height of your primers, subtract the latter from the former and add 0.002" for small primers and 0.003" for large primers (Federal's recommendation) to get the total number of thousandths below flush that is ideal for that particular case and primer. In other words, the primer anvil feet touch down on the bottom of the primer pocket, then you compress it by 0.002" or 0.003", depending on primer size. That exact figure is useful to know for precision rifle shooting with depth uniformed primer pockets that may need to be a thousandth or two deeper than commercial standards. But it doesn't hurt even the handgun loader to at least work out the average for their brass and primer lots, and to see their average result meets that computed average, ±0.001". Manufacturers don't do any more than that, and it works for them.

Tula primer cups are similar to CCI cups during the 1980's, before CCI revamped their process to remove cup burrs. They can seat with significant extra resistance, making them more likely to be left high, even when seating force seemed more than adequate. My Dillon Square Deal, which is my permanent .45 ACP press, couldn't seat 1980's CCI primers and can't seat Tula primers reliably. But both Slamfire and I have noted in the past that their rifle primers frequently produce the lowest velocity extreme spreads we can get, beating even Federal match primers in many instances in .308 and .30-06 and .223. So they are worth experimenting with if you can seat them correctly.

I honestly think I'm down to something like this.

I got a Lee shell holder. It's essentially identical to the Lyman I was using. And, I realized I was thinking about it wrong. With no case in the shell holder, the ram bottoms out when the shell holder hits the priming arm, which is a quarter inch or so below where it stops when a cartridge is present and the priming arm cup hits it.

I've measured a small sample so far. Primer pockets do show variance. Primers themselves (Winchester in this case, which I am rapidly running out of), much less variance.

And, I'm still seating to flush, with a ram prime die able to push it a few thousanths below flush.

Possibly a leverage issue, what with the priming being done at the bottom of the ram travel?
 

gwpercle

New member
Seat them till they hit bottom of pocket. Don't worry about measurements or how deep they are seated. I prime off press with a hand held primer tool so I can feel when they bottom out . With a press I couldn't fell this as well and with the compound linkage , at times, would crush a primers.
Gary
 

bt380

New member
Curious if it does it on both the pistol and rifle primers? On your Lee press, is the bar the primer rides pushed down or worn? Is the primer arm notch worn?
 

lee n. field

New member
The press is about a year and a half old. I have not loaded anything but pistol rounds on it (.38, 9mm, .40, & .45 ACP). .45 ACP is the only round that uses large primers. The priming arm does not look bent, worn or damaged.
 
Gwpercle said:
Seat them till they hit bottom of pocket. Don't worry about measurements or how deep they are seated. I prime off press with a hand held primer tool so I can feel when they bottom out

Benchresters used to do that until the late Creighton Audette figured out it didn't give best consistency. His last writings were on this topic in Precision Shooting in 1994. Federal says to seat their small primers 0.002" deeper than the point at which they make contact, and 0.003" for large primers. This is called setting the bridge (the amount of priming mix bridging the gap between primer cup and anvil). Olin and Remington give 0.002"-0.006" for all primers.

"There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths."

Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.
 
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