Practical Snobbery: The Case Against Stainless Steel

Citori

New member
Yes, no pores in steel. Sure.

I really don't know much about the HK you refer to and I do not know the process used to harden it. Or course you are aware that a number of various processes can be lumped under the term 'case hardening' (not really, but in the way you are using the term they can, probably more properly called surface hardening).

I doubt I need to point out to you that the HK could be thermally hardened, which would just convert existing components to martensite. And martensite has never been anything to cheer about. Or maybe something that doesn't particularly impart any corrosion resistance is added, like carbon, in a carburising process. Given that the gun isn't known for resisting rust I doubt any nitrogen is added to its steel, which would combine with something in the steel (I like chromium myself) to form a fairly hard nitride. A fairly hard nitride that can reduce intragranular corrosion by acting like a Noble Metal.

Of course the Tennifer process may well add oxygen at the end, I don't know. In comparison to a nitride-only process we'd see something like INIT OX offers (note the salt spray results):

13229.jpg


and under a scope:

13230.jpg


So I don't know about the HK. Maybe it doesn't even use carbon steel.
 

mete

New member
The HK P7 is definitely case hardened. Don't confuse the different processes. Carburizing and nitriding have been around a long time they are used for wear resistance. The IONIT OX process adds another factor and that adds in addition to wear resistance, corrosion protection.
 

VaughnT

New member
Does anyone else see a science war getting started here? As an ignorant blue-collar joe, I'm gonna sit back and watch this one....and hope something sinks in to my thick cranium (that's a big science word, for ya'll).

Mete, be advised that under Marquess of Queensbury Rules, you have been challenged by Citori with graphs and charts that look mighty confusing, and the failure to respond in kind could be construed as compitulation. :D

Cool beans, indeed.
 

Citori

New member
I don't confuse the two processes, unless I'm purposely trying to confuse people, which I don't generally try.

Regardless, nitriding improves corrosion resistance by adding nitrides that act as Noble Metal. It always has. It probably always will. Intragranular corrosion carbon steels reduced by nitriding.

Back to the original topic: Give me blued guns. Rust blued if possible.

If everyone were carrying stainless guns then we might be here discussing nitriding of stainless steel, which actually reduces corrosion resistance unlike the improvement you see with carbon steel, a subject that would require further graph posting. So lets make things easier on ourselves and buy rust blued walnut stocked firearms.
 

Redondo

New member
I like them both for different reasons but, I do have to admit that I LOVE the blueing on some older Smith revolvers.
 

python1340

New member
I like blued much better than stainless. Anyone ever pick up that tank of a pistol, the SIG P-220ST? The SIG P-220 is much lighter.

My S&W 586:
sw586.jpg


My STI Xcaliber .450:
xcaliber02.jpg
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Great Googly Moogly!

I done went and fetched me up a metallurgist! :eek:

In the context of the fact that I am most certainly NOT a member of that august profession, nor am I any kind of chemist, I count myself lucky that any of the hard-delivered pronouncements I leveled in my initial post about stainless' properties haven't drawn any negative criticism!

My experience with the stuff dates back to the first job I got out of high-school, working in a dinky shop in Palo Alto making high-vaccuum manifolds for Hewlett-Packard mass spectrometers. I started as the shop-helper. We cranked out 13-20 of these things, with associated flanges to hold componentry, per month on old Monarch lathes dated 1942 on a U.S Navy ID plate.

These T-shaped things were cold-forged out of 1/8"-wall 4" dia. tubing, with flanges machined from forgings. They had to be precise beyond the bounds of reason, (.001" or less squaritude and concentricity over a span of 18" or so, with a 6" extension at a right-angle to the body.) but if you ran the machines right, they'd repeat reliably.

I got REALLY GOOD at building these things, as well as anything else we had going through the shop. I learned most of my "formal" machine shop training here, as I hadn't had anything other than high-school metal shop before. Within the space of six months at the job, I was making EVERYTHING. I was the lead guy, at $4/hour shop-help wage. (In '86, we couldn't get competent help. Everyone who was worth a darn HAD a good job.) Anyone know what an H-P spectrometer cost back in the late eighties? I'm curious, as I made 100% of their componentry for a space of about two and a half years. I imagine my manifolds and flanges are in test facilities all over the planet.

I wasn't even 18 yet. After I worked there a year or so, I quit to go back to school, which was my original intent, but proved to be a fruitless endeavor. I don't dig school environments much, and I got booted from the parent's pad. So I went back to the old boss, and asked if he needed help. He did, as he was a one-man operation, mostly, and he STILL couldn't get anybody who could meet H-P's anal quality levels without botching a lot of stuff on the way. I just picked up where I'd left off. I still had the friggin' numbers for the parts memorized.

I did get a 100% raise, though. Still cheap for what I did, but it paid the rent for a 19 -year-old party-kid for a while. The boss eventually moved out to the Central Valley to get away from Bay Area traffic. I helped him move the place, and hung-out at his place keeping production rolling with his wife and son for a couple of weeks while he got set-up and hired some new help. (Didn't go bar-hopping on my 21'st b-day, either, but the bosses' wife made a swell cake. :))

He tried REALLY HARD to convince me to move out to Modesto and keep on working for him. Apparently I have the touch. But I was a home-body without even a car of my own, just a bycicle, plus I rather like the S.F. Bay Area, liberal swamp that it is.

So THAT background qualified all that stuff I wrote. I know how stainless handles, how it works, on a rather intimate level. Stuff gets downright ornery, sometimes. Pulling T's and crosses out of tubing hydraulically can set up some powerful residual tensions! And you woundn't think a 1"-thick steel disk would "relax" out of flat just by skimming 30-40 thousandths off of one face.

So on the one hand, you could see how I could be "done" with stainless steel. I've certainly bled enough over it. On the other hand, I also really like the stuff. I like it's look, luster, properties and strength. I even have a bunch of stainless guns, although I never bought 'em BECAUSE they were stainless. It just qualified as a minor feature not even meriting the dignity of a reply.

What can I say? I got a bee in my bonnet, and decided we needed some righteous good discussion to liven up the place. I TOLD you my head got swollen, so please forgive me if I blocked the light, or something.

At least I wasn't comparing calibers. Heck, I staked out a definitive position instead of asking questions or opinions. Bold as brass, me. On occaision, when I desire other's opinions, I shall deliver it to them. :p

(But mete didn't tell me I was full of it either, so maybe I do know a little something. Perhaps I shouldn't sell myself short, here.)

This is also making for some very interesting reading. I live for gun esoterica. Metallurgical properties as considerations to bear in mind whilst designing major operating components definitely fiits the description.

To be relevant to the discussion at hand, most of the porosity references I've come across were in discussions about nodular cast-iron combustion-engine components like crankshafts and blocks, but nodular cast-iron is a long way from modern alloys. On the other hand, my understanding of metallic grain structure and the effects of heat-treatment to said structure in terms of grain-growth and composition-change comes from the same basic premise.

Do the alloying elements like chromium and nickel in modern steels eliminate the "pores" by "filling the cracks"? Or do they allow the idividual bonds of the metallic ions to form a closer, tighter, more uniform crystal structure with a regulated sizing, filling the spaces by the consistency of the size of the ions, like consistently-sized bricks in a wall?

Or perhaps it's niether of those? I could be totally off base, here. Chemistry was a long time ago. And being told about ionic bonding failed to impart an understanding of the physical relationship of the elemental components involved.

And presuming I'll even understand the answer. I'm not to sure about the question! :eek:
 

Redondo

New member
Oct 97, well then, what about Tennifer, ArmorTuff, etc.? I changed my mind. Ignore my earlier post! Guns should be BLUED! PERIOD!
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
H_R_G,

Anyone know what an H-P spectrometer cost back in the late eighties?

Nah. They were the enemy when I briefly worked for Shimadzu in the mid '90s, though.

Having gotten somewhat interested in metallurgy via my knife collecting, I find myself wondering what kind of steels are used in guns now, and why...


Redondo,

Oct 97, well then, what about Tennifer...?

As was mentioned on the previous page, Tennifer isn't a "finish" of the sort that hard chrome is, but rather a treatment of the metal itself; a type of case hardening.
 

CastleBravo

New member
I find myself wondering what kind of steels are used in guns now, and why...

Ooh, ooh! I can answer that! Well, sort of.

4140 and 4340 carbon steels and 416 stainless steel are the alloys used by most reputable makers for most of their guns. Aluminum handguns are usually made of 7075... lightweight Colts, Kimbers and the Rohrbaugh R9 are anyway. This is commonly called "aircraft aluminum." 17-4PH stainless has also been used (Rorhbaugh R9 comes to mind here).

Considering how much steel Ruger provides to other makers via their Pine Tree foundry, you can look up what they make and get a pretty good idea what is being used to make, say, the slide of your P229.

Titanium guns are made of Commercially Pure titanium, or very rarely (e.g. SV)Ti6Al4V.

A rule of thumb is that the guy using good alloys brag about it, and the guys using pot metal are evasive if you ask them. ;)
 

CastleBravo

New member
My take on the topic? There is no one magic material, though one of the REALLY nice (read: expensive) stainless alloys plated with hard chrome or NP3 might come awfully close for most uses.
 

mete

New member
Some metallurgy - galling is by definition cold welding. Proper choice of materials and use of lubes designed for that such a RIG +P minimize the problem.....The term 'stainless steel' covers lots of alloys, using the wrong alloy can get you into trouble. Choice depends on many factore , cost, machinablity,chemical and physical properties etc.......Much of the corrosion resistance of stainless steel and other metals is due in great part to the oxide coating formed rather than just the alloy itself.....Sometimes the oxide coating is porous , that's why anodized aluminum ( a thick layer of oxide formed electrolytically) is then filled with waxes(which can be dyed to give you colors).......Since there are no 'pores' in steel alloying elements like chromium don't fill up the pores.....There are three basic types of bonding; ionic as in sodium chloride, covalent ( molecular) as in plastics,metallic as in metals. ...Metals don't have molecular bonding therefore the are no molecules in metals !!!....In metals there are atoms ,crystals and grains.
 

shep854

New member
My first firearm was (is) a stainless Series 80 Combat Commander, bought back in '88. I have not had a problem with it. Of course, I give it the same care I give blued guns.

What looks bad to me is nickel, with its yellowish color. It looks dirty to me.
 
Top