Hand_Rifle_Guy
New member
I was inspired by this post. But by the time I was done with this reply, my head was so swollen I had to start a new thread.
I present the best case ever for the return of Blued Steel to the position of The Standard Finish for most, if not all firearms. I hereby contend that Stainless Steel has had it's day. It's fine for foodservice, but Guns shall be Blued.
Once upon a time, Smith & Wes---I mean, Sellout & Worthless (I have not forgotten that 'agreement' with the Klinton administration they have as yet to repudiate.) decreed that they were out of the blued gun business. They decided to consolidate their line along the practical, non-rusting side of ther material debate, much to the grumbling of many who find the white stuff lacking in style. This isn't about S&W, though, this is about that shiny silver steel.
Sure, stainless is wunnerful stuff. It's not a panacea, however.
Stainless, depending on the alloy, is pretty ordinary steel with a higher chromium and nickel content. For knives, the higher-nickel alloys will NOT take an edge. Sharpening scrapes the iron away, leaving a wire-edge of comparitively soft nickel that rapidly fails. First-generation Leatherman tools are a good example of this. They came with an elegantly-ground clip-point knife blade that simply could not hold a decent edge. As far as guns go, that's probably a moot point though.
Some things to consider:
Stainless isn't stainPROOF. It CAN rust, some alloys being more vulnerable to it than others. Salts can attack it, particularly over time. Seawater can pit it, although not like it can attack carbon steel. Just so you know, stainless alloys are not absolute protection against corrosion, so you CAN pull red smears off of your stainless guns. (I've seen a Delorean with etched panels apparently from road salt, but it certainly wasn't the catastrophic iron-munching you see on regular cars.
Stainless is harder than carbon steel, requiring harder tools that wear out of tolerance faster than tools for carbon steels. Most machining cutters for stainless are made out of tungsten carbide rather than high-speed-steel. Stainless also requires smaller cuts, slower speeds and slower feedrates. This can raise production costs, and helps explain why stainless guns cost a bit more than their carbon steel counterparts.Stainless can also be quite springy. It is therefore more prone to warping when exposed to enough heat. Stainless forgings are well-known for their "personality" after forming, and usually require stress-relieving prior to final machining to maintain tolerances.
Stainless is quite prone to work-hardening. Under severe duty, stainless can become brittle and crack. The most egregious example of this in the gun industry was S&W's debacle with the Model 66, which repeatedly broke down when subjected to large amounts of high-pressure, high-temperature, 1450-fps 125-grain hollowpoints. Cracked forcing cones, and alarmingly swift erosion of barrel-ends and rifling, along with other mechanical problems, caused S&W no end of embarassment during the early days of M-66 production. Adopted by many LE departments, some armorers had a constant struggle to maintain enough working guns to supply their departments, while juggling a constant rotation of a significant percentage of their "new" revolvers back to the factory for major overhauls. This work-hardening tendency also effectivly precludes stainless steel springs, so the on-board energy-storage system of all guns still remains prone to quick rust damage if not properly maintained.
One of stainless's WORST habits, a major contributor to the teething troubles of many early-production stainless guns, and very probably the reason that SIGArms uses carbon-steel barrels with their stainless slides, is galling. Stainless, when rubbed against itself, or a piece of alloy that's close enough in composition, is "sticky", even through coats of lubricant. This galling can pit, gouge, and scratch machined parts VERY quickly, destroying smooth operation, close tolerances, and fine finishes. The relative smoothness of the surfaces involved is immaterial. A rolled-thread 316 stainless capscrew coated with molybdenum anti-sieze lube can be screwed into a swaged-thread bolthole in a 304 stainless vacuum flange and tightened all of ONCE, and become stuck like it welded itself in place. Far too often, the bolt-head will strip, or can even be twisted off without the grip on the threads releasing. At this point the bolt must be cut and drilled out.
This can be problematical for gun design. A stainless slide or frame is only worth so much when most of the rest of the mechanism must be made of rust-prone carbon steel. S&W revolver hammers and triggers, as well as some other internal parts, are case-hardened high-carbon steel. At least two (I can't remember WHICH two, so don't call me on it.) major gunmakers had issues with galling between the slide and frame of their stainless-framed autos. A stop-gap solution that allowed use of parts in inventory was to plasma-spray a hard coating over the contact points on the frame, but one final fix was a drastically different alloy for the frame forgings in one case, and hard-chomed carbon steel in another. (For the life of me I cannot remember the principals in this story. I think S&W was one, but I could be confusing them because of their revolver debacle. I read it a long time ago. Perhaps someone else remembers who had to do what?)
This is enough to give me pause in rushing right out to purchase a stainless replacement barrel for a given gun. The barrel of my AMT Automag V has galled stripes across the top of the barrel hood from rubbing on the underside of the slide during cycling. I polished both surfaces back to a mirror finish, and coated them with a thin layer of high-pressure lubricant, but the stripes returned almost instantly. The Automag V, no doubt due to the high-level stresses and loads developed as the lightest autopistol available for the powerful .50 A.E. cartridge, demonstrates galling in a number of the contact points of the parts that touch during the gun's admittedly violent cycling. AMT's other quality issues aside, I suspect one of the contributing factors to the swift demise of the Automag V was AMT's wish to use TOO MUCH stainless in the construction of their guns. Galling can cause hard-to-diagnose, intermittent "funny" problems in finely-tuned mechanisms that are sensitive to friction. Repairing such subtle damage can be a hit-or-miss proposition, as it can return quickly or slowly, depending on what level of ammo is used, heat buildup, rapidity and repetition of firing, or any number of other variables.
Modern technology like plasma-applied surface coatings such as titanium nitride, and advances in metallurgy, as well as a lot of painful teething, and trial and error have solved the difficulties that stainless steel brings into gun manufacture. Carbon-steel barrels and firing pins in stainless slides, aluminum trigger assemblies, scandium-aluminum frames, titanium as a structural material, Stainless barrels and pins in carbon steel slides with advanced coatings, and the ubiquitous polymer frame, all have proved effective work-arounds for the properties of stainless steel. Whereupon, for a time, S&W ceased production on blued-steel guns.
One must not forget, however, one important, fundamental thing: Springs, a most vital part of ANY gun's mechanism, are still made out of ONE material. High-carbon spring steel, which is just as rust-prone and vulnerable as it's always been.
In this context:
Stainless steel is not neccessarily a boon. Corrosion of the surface finish of the major components of a gun has little effect on it's function, but it does serve as a graphic reminder of the fact that guns are pieces of iron we routinely carry hidden in tight spaces about our salt, moisture, heat, and electrolyte-producing bodies. By removing the most obvious indicators of poor maintenance, care-free finishes discourage proper gun care. That can carry a potentially heavy price. If it's unkempt on the outside, is it rusted solid on the inside?
We count on these machines to save our lives with little or no warning. Like any machine, if a gun is not properly serviced, cleaned and maintained on a regular basis, it can fall into disrepair and fail at a critical moment. Perhaps the more elegant-but-fragile traditional finishes can be forgiven their vulnerability if they encourage one to be more attentive to the upkeep of a machine we rely on to be a lifesaver.
"Fine machinery has no place with The Lazy Man. He does not respect it, and in his care (Or lack thereof, perhaps.) soon it will cease to be fine machinery. Scorned by indifference, a precision mechanism becomes dilapidated, and swiftly becomes junk, an irritant to the conscientious, an insult to the crafstman, and a potentially fatal mistake."---H_R_G.
Now if you like stainless, and you don't buy into the lazyman's argument, and therefore you scrupulously maintain your equipage, why then I'll just have to accuse you of having bad taste. Personally, I prefer Blued Steel and Polished Walnut. This is America, however, and everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. It's just that I find disagreement with my inflated importance to be such frightfully bad form. How DO you manage to keep your name on the Social Register for the entire Season?...
I present the best case ever for the return of Blued Steel to the position of The Standard Finish for most, if not all firearms. I hereby contend that Stainless Steel has had it's day. It's fine for foodservice, but Guns shall be Blued.
Once upon a time, Smith & Wes---I mean, Sellout & Worthless (I have not forgotten that 'agreement' with the Klinton administration they have as yet to repudiate.) decreed that they were out of the blued gun business. They decided to consolidate their line along the practical, non-rusting side of ther material debate, much to the grumbling of many who find the white stuff lacking in style. This isn't about S&W, though, this is about that shiny silver steel.
Sure, stainless is wunnerful stuff. It's not a panacea, however.
Stainless, depending on the alloy, is pretty ordinary steel with a higher chromium and nickel content. For knives, the higher-nickel alloys will NOT take an edge. Sharpening scrapes the iron away, leaving a wire-edge of comparitively soft nickel that rapidly fails. First-generation Leatherman tools are a good example of this. They came with an elegantly-ground clip-point knife blade that simply could not hold a decent edge. As far as guns go, that's probably a moot point though.
Some things to consider:
Stainless isn't stainPROOF. It CAN rust, some alloys being more vulnerable to it than others. Salts can attack it, particularly over time. Seawater can pit it, although not like it can attack carbon steel. Just so you know, stainless alloys are not absolute protection against corrosion, so you CAN pull red smears off of your stainless guns. (I've seen a Delorean with etched panels apparently from road salt, but it certainly wasn't the catastrophic iron-munching you see on regular cars.
Stainless is harder than carbon steel, requiring harder tools that wear out of tolerance faster than tools for carbon steels. Most machining cutters for stainless are made out of tungsten carbide rather than high-speed-steel. Stainless also requires smaller cuts, slower speeds and slower feedrates. This can raise production costs, and helps explain why stainless guns cost a bit more than their carbon steel counterparts.Stainless can also be quite springy. It is therefore more prone to warping when exposed to enough heat. Stainless forgings are well-known for their "personality" after forming, and usually require stress-relieving prior to final machining to maintain tolerances.
Stainless is quite prone to work-hardening. Under severe duty, stainless can become brittle and crack. The most egregious example of this in the gun industry was S&W's debacle with the Model 66, which repeatedly broke down when subjected to large amounts of high-pressure, high-temperature, 1450-fps 125-grain hollowpoints. Cracked forcing cones, and alarmingly swift erosion of barrel-ends and rifling, along with other mechanical problems, caused S&W no end of embarassment during the early days of M-66 production. Adopted by many LE departments, some armorers had a constant struggle to maintain enough working guns to supply their departments, while juggling a constant rotation of a significant percentage of their "new" revolvers back to the factory for major overhauls. This work-hardening tendency also effectivly precludes stainless steel springs, so the on-board energy-storage system of all guns still remains prone to quick rust damage if not properly maintained.
One of stainless's WORST habits, a major contributor to the teething troubles of many early-production stainless guns, and very probably the reason that SIGArms uses carbon-steel barrels with their stainless slides, is galling. Stainless, when rubbed against itself, or a piece of alloy that's close enough in composition, is "sticky", even through coats of lubricant. This galling can pit, gouge, and scratch machined parts VERY quickly, destroying smooth operation, close tolerances, and fine finishes. The relative smoothness of the surfaces involved is immaterial. A rolled-thread 316 stainless capscrew coated with molybdenum anti-sieze lube can be screwed into a swaged-thread bolthole in a 304 stainless vacuum flange and tightened all of ONCE, and become stuck like it welded itself in place. Far too often, the bolt-head will strip, or can even be twisted off without the grip on the threads releasing. At this point the bolt must be cut and drilled out.
This can be problematical for gun design. A stainless slide or frame is only worth so much when most of the rest of the mechanism must be made of rust-prone carbon steel. S&W revolver hammers and triggers, as well as some other internal parts, are case-hardened high-carbon steel. At least two (I can't remember WHICH two, so don't call me on it.) major gunmakers had issues with galling between the slide and frame of their stainless-framed autos. A stop-gap solution that allowed use of parts in inventory was to plasma-spray a hard coating over the contact points on the frame, but one final fix was a drastically different alloy for the frame forgings in one case, and hard-chomed carbon steel in another. (For the life of me I cannot remember the principals in this story. I think S&W was one, but I could be confusing them because of their revolver debacle. I read it a long time ago. Perhaps someone else remembers who had to do what?)
This is enough to give me pause in rushing right out to purchase a stainless replacement barrel for a given gun. The barrel of my AMT Automag V has galled stripes across the top of the barrel hood from rubbing on the underside of the slide during cycling. I polished both surfaces back to a mirror finish, and coated them with a thin layer of high-pressure lubricant, but the stripes returned almost instantly. The Automag V, no doubt due to the high-level stresses and loads developed as the lightest autopistol available for the powerful .50 A.E. cartridge, demonstrates galling in a number of the contact points of the parts that touch during the gun's admittedly violent cycling. AMT's other quality issues aside, I suspect one of the contributing factors to the swift demise of the Automag V was AMT's wish to use TOO MUCH stainless in the construction of their guns. Galling can cause hard-to-diagnose, intermittent "funny" problems in finely-tuned mechanisms that are sensitive to friction. Repairing such subtle damage can be a hit-or-miss proposition, as it can return quickly or slowly, depending on what level of ammo is used, heat buildup, rapidity and repetition of firing, or any number of other variables.
Modern technology like plasma-applied surface coatings such as titanium nitride, and advances in metallurgy, as well as a lot of painful teething, and trial and error have solved the difficulties that stainless steel brings into gun manufacture. Carbon-steel barrels and firing pins in stainless slides, aluminum trigger assemblies, scandium-aluminum frames, titanium as a structural material, Stainless barrels and pins in carbon steel slides with advanced coatings, and the ubiquitous polymer frame, all have proved effective work-arounds for the properties of stainless steel. Whereupon, for a time, S&W ceased production on blued-steel guns.
One must not forget, however, one important, fundamental thing: Springs, a most vital part of ANY gun's mechanism, are still made out of ONE material. High-carbon spring steel, which is just as rust-prone and vulnerable as it's always been.
In this context:
Stainless guns are the answer to the Lazy Man's Prayers. Stainless steel pistol frames or aluminum, combined with stainless steel barrels, require less dedication to proper gun care and substantially reduce the risk of surface damage from corrosion.
Stainless steel is not neccessarily a boon. Corrosion of the surface finish of the major components of a gun has little effect on it's function, but it does serve as a graphic reminder of the fact that guns are pieces of iron we routinely carry hidden in tight spaces about our salt, moisture, heat, and electrolyte-producing bodies. By removing the most obvious indicators of poor maintenance, care-free finishes discourage proper gun care. That can carry a potentially heavy price. If it's unkempt on the outside, is it rusted solid on the inside?
We count on these machines to save our lives with little or no warning. Like any machine, if a gun is not properly serviced, cleaned and maintained on a regular basis, it can fall into disrepair and fail at a critical moment. Perhaps the more elegant-but-fragile traditional finishes can be forgiven their vulnerability if they encourage one to be more attentive to the upkeep of a machine we rely on to be a lifesaver.
"Fine machinery has no place with The Lazy Man. He does not respect it, and in his care (Or lack thereof, perhaps.) soon it will cease to be fine machinery. Scorned by indifference, a precision mechanism becomes dilapidated, and swiftly becomes junk, an irritant to the conscientious, an insult to the crafstman, and a potentially fatal mistake."---H_R_G.
Now if you like stainless, and you don't buy into the lazyman's argument, and therefore you scrupulously maintain your equipage, why then I'll just have to accuse you of having bad taste. Personally, I prefer Blued Steel and Polished Walnut. This is America, however, and everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. It's just that I find disagreement with my inflated importance to be such frightfully bad form. How DO you manage to keep your name on the Social Register for the entire Season?...