Jet, surprised your PP load was showing pressure signs. Within my humble experience, PP is a bit slower,about 10%, than Unique. I've loaded thousands of rounds of of 115,124, etc. 9MM with 6 grains of Unique without issue. Wouldn't think PP would be an issue at all with the loads you tried. I have used most major manufactuer's primers but never S&B, so wonder if they are bit soft or have thin cups,etc? I've found the CCI #500 SP primer to be a very good one for high pressure loads in 9MM, 38 Super,etc. The CCI #200 resists pressure almost as well. FWIW, my carbines have been the Marlin Camp 9s, 3 of them. These are very lightly sprung with 11# recoil springs from the factory. Until recently, I always used the Wolff 21# recoil springs in my Camp 9s. It may seem counter intuitive, but after almost doubling the recoil spring rate, the Camp 9s still extracted and ejected flawlessly with with everything from lightly loaded factory and handloaded ammo to very energetic factory and handloaded ammo. Anyway, I suspect the S&B primers may be the reason for the pressure signs. BTW, don't remember if you said you're using a chronograph or not. Valuable tool for a handloader IMHO.
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Powder for 9mm carbine loads
- Thread starter jetinteriorguy
- Start date
jetinteriorguy
New member
I'm shooting indoors and chrono's aren't allowed. I have a feeling it's the primers, they are brass color, not chrome like most hard primers. I should be able to rework my loads this weekend and get to the range on Monday to try again. I'm going to ask on the forum if anyone has had this experience with S&B pistol primers.
Stats Shooter
New member
Primers
I have never used SB primers, but I have had loads that I attempted to work up using two different primers at the same time. In my AR-10 I was using federal 210M and CCI-BR2 and the federal primers flowed to fill the pocket while the CCI's were still round....This occurred at 4k psi below MAP.
I have never used SB primers, but I have had loads that I attempted to work up using two different primers at the same time. In my AR-10 I was using federal 210M and CCI-BR2 and the federal primers flowed to fill the pocket while the CCI's were still round....This occurred at 4k psi below MAP.
briandg: " When you look at case blowout photos, nothing even remotely looks like mine."
And because of that and your descriptions, a photo of that would be a "one-of" internet classic. Murphy's law tells me that you may not have such a classic photo of it ?
ShootistPRS: "In the last 45 years of reloading I have never had cases shorten regardless of their shape."
I would normally agree with that except for the multiple reload test on 9mm I discussed, where I was specifically looking and measuring everything I could think of. My experience is a few years less than yours, but I have not had a reason to ever trim any pistol case, and I gage check all of them after the resize operation. I will concede that the straight walls like 357 magnum and 44 magnum would benefit from a trim but even if the gage shows a slight overlength there, I simply give those the extra roll crimp they deserve. Which means that I further concede from your entire post that I believe you are a more consistant shooter than I and that you are discussing something which helps your accuracy. For me, the magnums (44 in particular) can use extra crimp since I have never eliminated all the "flinch" when I shoot them. Yeah, Shootist, I am a wimp. I still flinch on the big Mags.
rock185: Entire post is extremely thought provoking. So much that it took me right back to the prior post.
jetinteriorguy: "even at the lowest level of 5gr I had primer flow, tried 5.2 and saw a substantial increase so I shut it down."
This is an excellent example of how any reloader should be conditioned to react FIRST, to anything that concerns you.
Mississippi: "and the federal primers flowed to fill the pocket".
I also agree entirely with rock185. The key for my own understanding is the use of the term "primer flow".
For me, this implies what I would describe as primer flattening, losing its round edge and leveling with the pocket brass edge, or Mississippi's simpler statement above. I have seen this in rifles, but never in a pistol case. What I see in pistols is a flatter than normal primer base which certainly changes the primer look, but not like a truly flattened-across-the-hole primer. With a magnifying glass, I can still see a slight rounding to the primer below the flat area. I see this most with "reduced loads" in revolvers, where the primer pops back, then the case slams back reseating the primer against the revolver receiver. But how do you really know ? Lets talk about "low pressure" signs.
What I usually see with the starting range in pistol load test, (and my argument for clean, not blackened cases), is the slight blow-back marks around the neck of the case. These should gradually disappear as the test load increments. (And usually the flatter than normal primer base will disappear with the blow-back marks.) Now if this does not happen, then I would have to go with rock185 and Mississippi on changing primers. Reading pistol case pressure signs is hard because they are minimal and can be easily argued over. Plus it is usually a sample of ONE. That is why I use multiple guns for load development. One can be a fluke. Three or more is STATISTICS. (BIG GRIN)
And because of that and your descriptions, a photo of that would be a "one-of" internet classic. Murphy's law tells me that you may not have such a classic photo of it ?
ShootistPRS: "In the last 45 years of reloading I have never had cases shorten regardless of their shape."
I would normally agree with that except for the multiple reload test on 9mm I discussed, where I was specifically looking and measuring everything I could think of. My experience is a few years less than yours, but I have not had a reason to ever trim any pistol case, and I gage check all of them after the resize operation. I will concede that the straight walls like 357 magnum and 44 magnum would benefit from a trim but even if the gage shows a slight overlength there, I simply give those the extra roll crimp they deserve. Which means that I further concede from your entire post that I believe you are a more consistant shooter than I and that you are discussing something which helps your accuracy. For me, the magnums (44 in particular) can use extra crimp since I have never eliminated all the "flinch" when I shoot them. Yeah, Shootist, I am a wimp. I still flinch on the big Mags.
rock185: Entire post is extremely thought provoking. So much that it took me right back to the prior post.
jetinteriorguy: "even at the lowest level of 5gr I had primer flow, tried 5.2 and saw a substantial increase so I shut it down."
This is an excellent example of how any reloader should be conditioned to react FIRST, to anything that concerns you.
Mississippi: "and the federal primers flowed to fill the pocket".
I also agree entirely with rock185. The key for my own understanding is the use of the term "primer flow".
For me, this implies what I would describe as primer flattening, losing its round edge and leveling with the pocket brass edge, or Mississippi's simpler statement above. I have seen this in rifles, but never in a pistol case. What I see in pistols is a flatter than normal primer base which certainly changes the primer look, but not like a truly flattened-across-the-hole primer. With a magnifying glass, I can still see a slight rounding to the primer below the flat area. I see this most with "reduced loads" in revolvers, where the primer pops back, then the case slams back reseating the primer against the revolver receiver. But how do you really know ? Lets talk about "low pressure" signs.
What I usually see with the starting range in pistol load test, (and my argument for clean, not blackened cases), is the slight blow-back marks around the neck of the case. These should gradually disappear as the test load increments. (And usually the flatter than normal primer base will disappear with the blow-back marks.) Now if this does not happen, then I would have to go with rock185 and Mississippi on changing primers. Reading pistol case pressure signs is hard because they are minimal and can be easily argued over. Plus it is usually a sample of ONE. That is why I use multiple guns for load development. One can be a fluke. Three or more is STATISTICS. (BIG GRIN)
ShootistPRS
New member
Highrolls,
I would never call anyone but myself a wimp. Right after I got my 357 I developed a flinch - a bad flinch. Once I recognized it I started dry fire practice, loading inert ammo mixed with good ammo, and firing at very close ranges. (ten feet) I practiced with slow moving wad-cutters and worked my way up to full magnum loads. When I could put six shots through the same hole I moved the target back a yard and fired until I could keep them in one ragged hole. I kept moving the target back until I could keep my rounds in a one inch group at 25 yards. Then I practiced at 50 yards, 75 yards, and finally 100 yards. (all standing shooting off hand (no support)) Thanks to Hunter's Pistol Silhouette I got a lot of practice and the "instant gratification" of targets blown off their stand. It took a couple of years but I learned a lot about the "dreaded flinch", what caused it, and how to cure it. Building a flinch is natural no matter how big or small you are. It is the body's natural reaction to recoil and muzzle blast. Your body learns that every time the trigger finger is moved rearward when aiming a gun it gets a mechanical kick and the brain connects it to the loud noise that happens at the same time. The muscles try to resist the kick and the noise causes the eyes to blink. I spent a lot of time at the range telling my self out loud that it was not going to injure me and could shoot relaxed and without fear. Dry fire reinforced the fact that pulling the trigger did not always result in a kick ad a loud noise and in fact most of the time nothing happened. I practiced balancing a dime on the front sight while pulling the trigger in double action. (the dime was laid across the sight not standing it on edge)
You can get rid of your flinch too by doing the same things. It does require a real desire (need) to cure it and about twice the amount of dry fire practice as you spend shooting live fire. Dry fire is also used to get a sight picture quickly and how to breathe and control your trigger. It takes you back to the basics;
Breathe, relax, sight alignment on the target, trigger control and follow through. In this case it is OK to talk to yourself positively and reward yourself when you do it all right.
I would never call anyone but myself a wimp. Right after I got my 357 I developed a flinch - a bad flinch. Once I recognized it I started dry fire practice, loading inert ammo mixed with good ammo, and firing at very close ranges. (ten feet) I practiced with slow moving wad-cutters and worked my way up to full magnum loads. When I could put six shots through the same hole I moved the target back a yard and fired until I could keep them in one ragged hole. I kept moving the target back until I could keep my rounds in a one inch group at 25 yards. Then I practiced at 50 yards, 75 yards, and finally 100 yards. (all standing shooting off hand (no support)) Thanks to Hunter's Pistol Silhouette I got a lot of practice and the "instant gratification" of targets blown off their stand. It took a couple of years but I learned a lot about the "dreaded flinch", what caused it, and how to cure it. Building a flinch is natural no matter how big or small you are. It is the body's natural reaction to recoil and muzzle blast. Your body learns that every time the trigger finger is moved rearward when aiming a gun it gets a mechanical kick and the brain connects it to the loud noise that happens at the same time. The muscles try to resist the kick and the noise causes the eyes to blink. I spent a lot of time at the range telling my self out loud that it was not going to injure me and could shoot relaxed and without fear. Dry fire reinforced the fact that pulling the trigger did not always result in a kick ad a loud noise and in fact most of the time nothing happened. I practiced balancing a dime on the front sight while pulling the trigger in double action. (the dime was laid across the sight not standing it on edge)
You can get rid of your flinch too by doing the same things. It does require a real desire (need) to cure it and about twice the amount of dry fire practice as you spend shooting live fire. Dry fire is also used to get a sight picture quickly and how to breathe and control your trigger. It takes you back to the basics;
Breathe, relax, sight alignment on the target, trigger control and follow through. In this case it is OK to talk to yourself positively and reward yourself when you do it all right.
At one point after brain surgery I "forgot " how to fire a revolver single action. I couldn't do that little tiny tick of a pull. Everything I had used for a while had either a long lead up or I was using my revolvers DA.
I'm good at da. I could roll through the cycle and was accurate. The problem seemed to be isolating that small movement and doing it. I'm still not working it well.
I'm good at da. I could roll through the cycle and was accurate. The problem seemed to be isolating that small movement and doing it. I'm still not working it well.
Sixty years ago people talked about the .45 and .357 being high recoil rounds, then .44, now,the cannons are in fashion.
Those guns are still big shockers. At the time of the creation of the .357, I feel that most people had used nothing bigger than a police .38. Retired military would have experience with .45, even so, many people loaded them down to be "softball" loads.
The .357 is an intense load with brisk recoil and a heavy blast. Many shooters without extensive histories will find it hard to shoot.
I have no desire to fire anything more powerful than a .44.
Those guns are still big shockers. At the time of the creation of the .357, I feel that most people had used nothing bigger than a police .38. Retired military would have experience with .45, even so, many people loaded them down to be "softball" loads.
The .357 is an intense load with brisk recoil and a heavy blast. Many shooters without extensive histories will find it hard to shoot.
I have no desire to fire anything more powerful than a .44.
jetinteriorguy
New member
I guess what I meant by primer flow is that the primer was quite literally flowing into the firing pin hole in the breach, not just a little cratering. And not just a little but a pretty substantial amount. I thought the primers were flattening out but upon closer inspection I see that the S&B primers are quite flat when seated. The cases were only slightly discolored around the rim so they seemed to be sealed ok, at least as good as any other loads I've used in the carbine. I have noticed though that this gun does just seem to shoot dirty, which I've always attributed to it being a blow back design. Well, I'll just keep messing with it until I get it figured out. After all that's part of the fun with handloading.
I have a JRC in 9mm. Have two Berettas (45acp and 40s&w) and a Hi Point 380. The JRC 9 is by far the most accurate. Put a sweet trigger in for a smooth and light pull.
Couldn't emphasize enough if you have not used Herco in 9mm loads you are missing one of the most accurate powders for 9mm. The JRC shoots a one inch group at 50 yards and 2.5 inch group at 100 yards using 4.7 Herco with a Lee 125.
Couldn't emphasize enough if you have not used Herco in 9mm loads you are missing one of the most accurate powders for 9mm. The JRC shoots a one inch group at 50 yards and 2.5 inch group at 100 yards using 4.7 Herco with a Lee 125.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Hmm, never tried Herco. I'll have to keep my eyes open for it and give it a try sometime. I did pull down my remaining loads and have reloaded them with CCI small pistol primers so we'll see how it goes again.
briabdg: "I sent three to your listed email. You can send any comments through pm or email."
Got them and thank you very much. Comments prolly off topic for here so check both your pm and email.
ShootistPRS: "You can get rid of your flinch too by doing the same things."
When I first started with Magnum pistol rounds, I was fortunate to have been shooting with someone like you, well someone who advocated the techniques you have. Worked great. Until I developed the second type of flinch, which I will re-name as the "age" flinch (I agree, sounds better than the "wimp" flinch). Started with the 454 casull. It began to be painful, so I traded off the gun. Then the 44 Mag began to be painful, but to be fair, this was a TC Contender with a super 14 barrel which puts the 240 grains out around 1800 plus fps and weighs less than typical 44 mag revolvers. So far, I still like to shoot 44 mags and can do so using recoil gloves, which I do not like much. When this begins to be painful, my only fallback to keep shooting them will be to load with Trail Boss. With 357 mags, the only painful flinch I have is with full up boutique ammo in the 357 Mag LCR which is my CC.
briandg: "I have no desire to fire anything more powerful than a .44."
Strongly Agree. I had a chance to empty the cylinder on a Smith .500. Fired one round and said thank you very much. While I did not think it was monstrous, it did hurt a bit in my wrist. Not quite as bad as the Desert Eagle in 50 AE, which seemed snappier (Is that a word?) Kept both empty cases as a reminder of my limitations.
jetinteriorguy: "I guess what I meant by primer flow is that the primer was quite literally flowing into the firing pin hole in the breach, not just a little cratering. And not just a little but a pretty substantial amount."
That can be a bad sign but can also be an indication of too much free play around the firing pin hole. Thats where a known good baseline round can be used for comparison. Look good in that area next time you take the gun down for cleaning.
Got them and thank you very much. Comments prolly off topic for here so check both your pm and email.
ShootistPRS: "You can get rid of your flinch too by doing the same things."
When I first started with Magnum pistol rounds, I was fortunate to have been shooting with someone like you, well someone who advocated the techniques you have. Worked great. Until I developed the second type of flinch, which I will re-name as the "age" flinch (I agree, sounds better than the "wimp" flinch). Started with the 454 casull. It began to be painful, so I traded off the gun. Then the 44 Mag began to be painful, but to be fair, this was a TC Contender with a super 14 barrel which puts the 240 grains out around 1800 plus fps and weighs less than typical 44 mag revolvers. So far, I still like to shoot 44 mags and can do so using recoil gloves, which I do not like much. When this begins to be painful, my only fallback to keep shooting them will be to load with Trail Boss. With 357 mags, the only painful flinch I have is with full up boutique ammo in the 357 Mag LCR which is my CC.
briandg: "I have no desire to fire anything more powerful than a .44."
Strongly Agree. I had a chance to empty the cylinder on a Smith .500. Fired one round and said thank you very much. While I did not think it was monstrous, it did hurt a bit in my wrist. Not quite as bad as the Desert Eagle in 50 AE, which seemed snappier (Is that a word?) Kept both empty cases as a reminder of my limitations.
jetinteriorguy: "I guess what I meant by primer flow is that the primer was quite literally flowing into the firing pin hole in the breach, not just a little cratering. And not just a little but a pretty substantial amount."
That can be a bad sign but can also be an indication of too much free play around the firing pin hole. Thats where a known good baseline round can be used for comparison. Look good in that area next time you take the gun down for cleaning.
My brother in law is 6 feet plus, weighs beyond 240, served four years in the marines, stateside, during the seventies. Guy worked as an electric lineman for thirty years, an incredibly hard job. Imagine occasionally working eighty to 100 hour weeks when half of the state is flattened by ice storms, or a tornado tore out twenty square miles of lines.
Point being that he is a tough SOB who's as hard as rocks, a guy who is one in 1,000. He retired his .44 magnum years ago, his hands hurt. He handed my twelve gauge back after a few rounds. He likes his .22.
Recoil reminds me of peppers. I don't particularly like sriracha. My son in law remarked "that's not spicy".
"YES IT IS, YOU CRAP BAG! Don't be an idiot!"
Point being that he is a tough SOB who's as hard as rocks, a guy who is one in 1,000. He retired his .44 magnum years ago, his hands hurt. He handed my twelve gauge back after a few rounds. He likes his .22.
Recoil reminds me of peppers. I don't particularly like sriracha. My son in law remarked "that's not spicy".
"YES IT IS, YOU CRAP BAG! Don't be an idiot!"
jetinteriorguy
New member
I made it back to the range to try the Power Pistol loads using CCI SPP. Much better results, seems 5.6gr of PP works great with the Berry's heavy plated hollow base bullets. Only minor cratering with these primers like all my loads do with the carbine, so I'm going to have to find another use for the S&B SPP's. I did load up some 9mm using my standard load of 3.2gr of Clays and only got minor cratering so will try some more and can possibly use them for that load. If recoil is any indication of a bullets power these PP loads should have some oomph to them.