Powder for 9mm carbine loads

[jetinteriorguy]

Just a couple thoughts. I picked up a bunch of Berry's 9mm 124gr Hollow Base Flat Point thick plated bullets in order to work up a carbine specific load for my JustRight carbine. These are rated up to 1500 fps so I figured they should work good in the longer barrel of the carbine. For my first attempt I'm going to try Power Pistol, but for 9mm I have HS-6, Clays, Titegroup, 700X, HP38, and BE available to work with. Now all that said, here's the two aspects I'm curious about. First is burn rate, my thinking is to use as slow a powder as I can to take advantage of the longer barrel, and second is should it be loaded lower due to possible higher pressure from a longer barrel or could it be loaded pretty much to the max without to much concern. The reason why I'm curious is due to some pretty widely varying load data I've found for Power Pistol. I have already loaded some based on the lower data, and of course am working up from low to high and following normal loading procedure and watching for pressure signs so this is mostly an academic exercise to get thoughts on load range in a 16" carbine barrel versus a shorter pistol barrel. Open to all thoughts and suggestions.

 

[reddog81]

What carbine is it? I'm pretty sure most can handle +P loads and my Mech Tech CCU doesn't like light loads. I'd start in the middle of the load data you are seeing and work up from there.

The longer barrel has no effect on the peak pressure of the round. The highest pressure spike is in the chamber and the first inch of the barrel. For example .30-06 has a peak pressure around 60,000 PSI but the port pressure in a Garand requires 6,000 PSI at the end of the barrel. After a couple inches the pressure drops exponentially. The longer barrel allows the bullet to speed up for a longer time and that's the reason for the increased velocity.

Power pistol should be a good powder. I'd try it in a couple different loads. There's no reason you couldn't try faster powders like BE or titegroup but starting with PP seems logical. When in doubt regarding load data you can always start with the powder manufacturers data.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

It's a JustRight carbine. I think what you've said pretty much mirrors what I'm thinking. I have been using all of my normal loads for pistol with pretty good results in the carbine, but now I've decided to do a carbine specific load only, so giving it some extra thought. I have some substantial time off coming up and am also going to do the same for my Henry levers in .357 and .41 mag as well. So I guess what I'm aiming for is a load to maximize velocity and accuracy in longer barreled pistol calibers, and keeping within safe pressures.

 

[Chainsaw.]

Ive actually loaded 9mm with 4227 and it works in an auto pistol, its a little bit slower than PP, titegroup etc so perhaps it could do well in the long barrel of a carbine. 4227 wpuld be pert near perfect for your 357 & 41 mag me thinks.

 

[egd]

On another forum-The High Road- in the reloading section, member BDS has several threads about this very subject. If you go there and search mythbusting by member BDS you will get several hits that apply to what you want.
From memory, one main thing to consider is the distance you will be mostly shooting at and if the bullet will be going through a trans-sonic state as it hits the target. Basically you need to decide if you want to stay supersonic or subsonic all the way to the target.
Like I said, there are several threads there that apply to your questions.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I do have some IMR4227, but was thinking 2400 for the magnums. I'll have to check it out over at the high road, been a while since I've been there. I think for distance shooting I really am thinking 50yds max since I shoot all these with iron sights. So in my mind if I can shoot under 3" offhand at 50 yds that would be pretty usable. Any distance past that and I'll using a rifle with optics. 63 year old eyes ain't what they used to be.

 

[T. O'Heir]

9mm Carbine powders are the same as the powders used for 9mm pistol loads. So are the loads. It's the barrel length that gives the higher velocities.
IMR4227 is too fast for 9mm anything. It's a magnum powder. Works really well in .30 Carbine though.

 

[SHR970]

Your carbine like most every 9mm carbine is a blow back action. The bolt and spring weights are based on standard 9mm loads and powder ranges. Why do I state this you might ask?

Using too slow of a powder can have the bolt opening BEFORE the pressure has dropped enough and can cause case bulging or case failure. I have seen this with +P loads and with slower powders like Blue Dot and AA#7. You can find pictures on the net if you search for them. I'm not saying it WILL happen in your gun but it is a very real possibility.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Right, I only use appropriate powders in 9mm, but I guess I'm just pondering on any affect the longer barrel might have on pressure compared to a pistol length barrel using the same powder in both instances. But I got my answer already that peak pressure is reached too early for the longer barrel to have an affect on peak pressure. The added length merely affects final velocity, not peak pressure. So basically I'll just work up loads the same as if it were a pistol to find what works best in the carbine. It's just a slow day giving me time to consider things in a different light. So far I have put about 2000 rounds of various loads through my carbine with pretty good results, but I'm now going to just work up a load exclusively for it and have been thinking of any possible different things to consider.

 

[Stats Shooter]

You'll find max velocity from the slowest burning 9mm pistol powder loaded to +P. HS-6 is a good choice.

For Instance: I load 44 mag in both a revolver (6") and a lever action carbean. Hodgdon H110 is a slower burning powder for a 44mag pistol, but gives max velocity in both my pistol and carbean.

In your case, since you already have some, try HS-6. It is slower but still recommend for 9mm. I'm willing to bet it will give you great velocity at pressures much lower than something like clays or titegroup. But not too slow as to not work properly in your action.

 

[Hammerhead]

Lyman #49 shows Power Pistol to be a top performer in 9mm carbines as far as velocity and accuracy. I haven't used it myself.

My choice is HS-6, it's the one powder I feel comfortable pushing all the way to the max listed charges in 9mm, plus it's slow enough to take advantage of the longer bore.

 

[ShootistPRS]

The type of powder that is useful in a cartridge is determined by the powder capacity and the bullet weight. You will get lower velocities with powders that burn too fast and the same is true with powders that burn too slow.
Basically the same powder that gives top performance in a short barrel is the same powder that will give top performance in longer barrels. Pressures don't change with barrel length either. If you want maximum velocity then pick from the powders that provide the highest velocities in the book.

 

[Chainsaw.]

"IMR4227 is too fast for 9mm anything. It's a magnum powder. Works really well in .30 Carbine though."

Incorrect. 4227, being a magnum ppwder burns slower than say HS6 or titegroup which is why it may be more suited for this use, longer burn time equal more push down a longer barrel.

 

[Clone]

I have achieved over 1600 fps with Blue Dot in a Hi Point carbine, without going +p. This was with a 115gr bullet, there isn't as much gain with 124 though.

I would not advise trying this with other carbines though. the heavier bolt of the HP helps to delay the extraction before the pressure curve has dissipated.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Winchester 231 or AA#7

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I have used HS-6 and like it a lot, enough so that it's already one of my standard loads and I have a fair amount loaded up now. Once you hit the sweet spot with HS-6 it's a very nice powder with great accuracy. Lately in my pistols though I've mostly been using Clays, super accurate, very economical, and nice soft recoil. The HS-6 has a much snappier recoil making rapid fire a little less accurate for me. I can put 50 rounds rapid fire at 7 yards into a 2 1/2" hole all day long with my P07 using the Clays handloads. Love it.

 

[sawdustdad]

I have a Marlin 9 Camp Carbine. I load 6g Unique in my 9mm 115g bullet ammo for that rifle.

 

[rock185]

Jet, I have loaded for a succession Marlin 9MM carbines since they were first introduced, and have chronographed the results. I have used medium to slower powders,e.g., Unique, Herco, HS-6, Blue Dot, Accurate arms #7 and #9, etc. I tend to load 9MM for pistol and carbine to what would be considered +P levels. I plink out to a hundred yards or so with my current carbine with 4X scope. The little carbine using +P factory ammo, or equivalent handloads, shoots surprisingly flat at that distance. I don't even worry about any hold over unless the target is really small. BTW, might be good have look at Speer's comments on loading the 9MM for carbines in general, and the 147 grain bullets in particular. BTW, I agree, 4227 is not too fast for 9MM, it's Way-Too-Slow. I've had conversations with shooters who think Magnums must use faster powders to achieve those high velocities, when the opposite is true.

BTW,sawdustdad, 6 grains of Unique or 7 grains of Herco were my most used loads with 115 grain jacketed bullets for years. Both gave respectable velocities, especially the Herco, without any ugly pressure issues in pistols, revolvers and the Marlins.

 

[armoredman]

I have used Berrys plated bullets in many loads over the years, and with many pounds of Accurate Arms #7, which seems to work just fine. 6.5-6.8 grains of #7 do a good number under a 124 gr bullet in the Scorpion's 7.5 inch barrel, no problem. With home cast, powder coated slugs that gets me about 1200 FPS in the Scorpion at 6.8 grains.
As always, data for academic purposes, your mileage may vary, do not use in the shower, etc.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would say the optimum powder would be the one that a case full was the maximum pressure load. I have not rung the changes on HV 9mm, but HS6 would be worth a look. It was also the only powder I have found "dirty" enough to coke up the chamber to the point of malfunction but that may have been because I was below maximum. Power Pistol is good, I wonder if it has the same manly flash and bang in a carbine as a pistol.

Interesting point, what with PCC in USPSA and trying to sneak into IDPA, the gamers are looking for light loads, just make minor power factor out of a 10-16" barrel. They use a lot of Titegroup and have a lot of malfunctions.