Police officers = civilians or part of the armed forces?

[Dust Monkey]

Yes, I know some cops are former military. I just wonder how many former military cops are ex military because they wanted to be or they were kicked out because they were not soldier material. Hmmmm. I remember a report about a national guard unit made up of cops and how a 1 star kicked their bums out of Iraq back to the states due to their attitudes and crap work product.

As soon as cops start being peace officers again instead of wanna be soldiers who use the constitution as TP, then I will start caring. And I do not want to hear " just doing my job, blame the folks who pass the laws" crap. Have some stones people. LE is NOT the most dangerous job out there, if you think so of have been brainwashed to believe that you are lacking in the smarts area. And dont moan about the dangers of your job, you wanted it, you applied for it, so do it, but do it right.

 

[tc556guy]

Monkey, no offense, but your post is pure paranoia. The officers I know who are prior military are prior service because they did their tours and got out. The same as anyone else who does 1,2, or however many tours in the .mil. How you can take it from that to some assumption of incompetenecy is all in your mind; you are looking for the worst in a group of people and making stuff up out of pure speculation.

I highly doubt that ANY MP unit would be entirely removed from a combat zone all by itself, without having returned home in its entirety with its parent organization. But of course "you heard" something somewhere, so it MUST be true, right?

Officers are hardly "using the Constitution for TP". if anything, constitutonal issues are taught more at the basic school and in in-service training than ever before.

Have some stones people. LE is NOT the most dangerous job out there, if you think so of have been brainwashed to believe that you are lacking in the smarts area. And dont moan about the dangers of your job, you wanted it, you applied for it, so do it, but do it right.

How do you have ANY idea about what constitutes "doing it right".

 

[fbrown333@suddenlink]

US vs THEM

I have to chime in on this one. I have several friends who are in law enforcement and are fine people in my book. I was taught to treat people how you wanted to be treated. Some look at it as a job, others a power trip, and yet some as a way of life. Law or civilian makes no diff to me. Would I help a law man if he needed it .. yes even if I do not like him or his views. for the simple reason that he stands for the law. You have good and bad in all walks of life.If you'r a decent person that is all that matters the rest is small stuff (don't sweat the small stuff).

 

[armoredman]

I just wonder how many former military cops are ex military because they wanted to be or they were kicked out because they were not soldier material.

So, how long were you in prison, and did you get your rights restored?
You really have issues with LE, don't you? Been busted a lot? I found out that if I don't break the law, I have nothing but positive contact with LE, and the very, very few times I did run astray, (two accidents, one speeding ticket, and the registration one, that's all in the last 20 years), if I remained professional and polite they did too. I know several officers who were in the service, some who retired from it, (and wanted second careers), and all are highly professional employees. One just left the Army, and is both working for the Dept, and doing CCW instructing on the side, because that's what he likes to do. Nobody who is dishonorably discharged from military service can become LEO, nor can they lawfully posess a firearm.
Did you serve your country? I did, 86-89.

 

[BreacherUp!]

Have some stones people

Yeah, like the stones you had when you drove by a fellow "civilain" in need of help.
And you wonder why the gap widens....

 

[Dust Monkey]

Did I serve? Yes, 88 - 95 US Army. And I know of several cops who were "discharged under general conditions" as in not honerable but not dishonerable. I was a peace officer after I got out for a few years. I left police work for 2 reasons, first, I got tired of the "new" officers lacing up combat boot acting like soldiers off to war and I found a better job with more money.

About not helping that cop out. When the whole of law enforcement starts being of the people , and for the people instead of acting like a paramilitary unit that treats everyone like a criminal until proven otherwise, then I will change my tune. Cops use the "well bad people are wanting to hurt us" and I agree, but the whole population should not pay because of a few bad people. So I figure there are a few bad apples that are cops, and I do not know if the cop I am dealing with is a bad apple, so I assume the cop is, that way I will be safe.

No prision here, why do you ask. Are you under expecting to be locked up?

 

[sasquatch]

So I figure there are a few bad apples that are cops, and I do not know if the cop I am dealing with is a bad apple, so I assume the cop is, that way I will be safe.

So, try changing that to read......So I figure there are a few bad apples that are suspects, and I do not know if the suspect I am dealing with is a bad apple, so I assume the suspect is, that way I will be safe.

Maybe then you'll understand where the cop is coming from.

 

[Dust Monkey]

And since some cops are bad, I will assume the one I am dealing with is bad, since I dont know if said cop is good or a bad apple, just in case. Now you know where I am coming from.


It works both ways.

 

[seed]

It's just nice that you can even discuss such things on this forum and not be bullied by a bunch of cops on-line. I see that sort of thing happen all the time on the "Cop Talk" forum of Glock Talk. And it is absolutely disgusting. The attitude and disrespect of the MAJORITY of the cops posting there is appalling and scary. If someone asks a "sensitive" question about such things as excessive force or their feelings about non-cops RKBA, they railroad the thread with non-sense posts and "funny" pictures of unrelated subject-matter such as obese Down's Syndrome people doing something hapless. Then they pat each other on the back and continue the assault until after over a hundred posts, the OP gets frustrated and surrenders all hope of getting a straight answer.

This is the attitude I have often seen reflected in the streets as well. Not always, but a lot more often than I would like to think would be tolerated by anybody. It's so bad, that when I witness a good cop (i.e. respectful human being doing his job well) interacting gracefully with non-criminals, I am always floored by the experience. Oddly, if more and, in an ideal world most (if not all) cops were this human towards non-suspects, then cooperation from the public would sky-rocket, due to a lack of resentment towards the profession.

Unfortunately, I don't see this militarization of the police as anything less than deliberate by the powers that be in their assault on the middle and lower class. They need the cops to protect their assets and their ability to wage their theft on all the "little people" (to paraphrase the attitude clumsily admitted by the late C U Next Tuesday, Leona Helmsly when she defended the literally criminal tax evasion practiced by the very richest with their off-shore accounts in such criminal enterprises as BCCI and such). As we head for the next Great Depression, which WILL happen within the next 20 years, expect more cops, more funding for cops, more militarization of cops, and more useful crowd-control weaponry (along with lethal weapons) paid for by us "little people" to be used against us if we ever get the crazy notion that the government should actually be run by the people for the people. I only hope that it isn't too late with the majority of cops who won't buy into the "us versus them" mentality.

Sorry if I offend...I'm just being open and honest.

 

[sasquatch]

Sorry if I offend...I'm just being open and honest.

And just a tad paranoid.

 

[seed]

Am I? Try reading up on what I am talking about. Our government is filled to the brim with criminals on the highest level. The difference is that when it comes time for the investigation (if it ever gets that far), it is stonewalled by them or their friends in government. The damage done by them and the banks cause much more damage, misery, death and destruction than the mafia ever dreamed of doing. And they do it with impunity. They don't pay taxes (or barely a fraction of what they owe) because they keep their money in off-shore accounts which undergo NO scrutiny.

More later, because I have to go right now...sorry.

 

[tc556guy]

It's just nice that you can even discuss such things on this forum and not be bullied by a bunch of cops on-line. I see that sort of thing happen all the time on the "Cop Talk" forum of Glock Talk. And it is absolutely disgusting. The attitude and disrespect of the MAJORITY of the cops posting there is appalling and scary. If someone asks a "sensitive" question about such things as excessive force or their feelings about non-cops RKBA, they railroad the thread with non-sense posts and "funny" pictures of unrelated subject-matter such as obese Down's Syndrome people doing something hapless. Then they pat each other on the back and continue the assault until after over a hundred posts, the OP gets frustrated and surrenders all hope of getting a straight answer.

I haven't posted on GT in some time, but just as on other boards with LEO sections, you have to understand that the long term posting officers have seen just about every type of anti-LEO troll post under the guise of looking for "advice" when in reality they have an ax to grind with officers and LE in general. Not to mention the types who dont bother to do any sort of a search of the topics before posting a thread topic thats been beat to death for years.

 

[seed]

I understand that. But consider why so many have an ax to grind. It is pretty legit that a growing number of people have this ax to grind due in large part to very frequent extremely unpleasant and poor experiences with LEO's. And the number of incidents and degree of negativity seem to be growing. A lot of this is due to the "us versus them" mentality which many cops, such as most on GT definitely have. This militarization only makes things worse as a more distinctive divide is defined and made real with the increase in their power, numbers, firepower, and the troubling lack of emphasis towards helping people who are made more helpless and more dependent upon them through the tons of laws being designed all the time by insolent representatives of the privileged (i.e. California).

There is abuse of power and it is VERY scary when it is being done by LEO's and even more scary when it is indirectly encouraged through bad attitude towards the sheep they are supposed to protect. This is supposed to be discouraged and not encouraged as it is on CopTalk of GT.

 

[tc556guy]

I understand that. But consider why so many have an ax to grind. It is pretty legit that a growing number of people have this ax to grind due in large part to very frequent extremely unpleasant and poor experiences with LEO's. And the number of incidents and degree of negativity seem to be growing. A lot of this is due to the "us versus them" mentality which many cops, such as most on GT definitely have. This militarization only makes things worse as a more distinctive divide is defined and made real with the increase in their power, numbers, firepower, and the troubling lack of emphasis towards helping people who are made more helpless and more dependent upon them through the tons of laws being designed all the time by insolent representatives of the privileged (i.e. California).

No, I don't consider it "legit". The only thing I see is that a few cases get blown out of proportion, and because of the internet, are made to seem more prevalent than they actually are.

The "us vs them" mentality didnt start with officers.

As for "militarization"...please.....so because officers now have equipment that actually reflects the requirements and demands of their daily job instead of, say,a uniform that is only appropriate for a parade, LEOs are now "militarized"? You have to try harder than that to make your point.

As for helping people...in big cities, the officers run from call to call. Not so bad in smaller araes,. but even smaller agencies feel the call load crush, if only in spurts instead of an on-going problem. Not sure exactly what you think of as helping people, but community based policing has been a big trend for the past decade. There is MORE of an emphasis on reaching out to the community than ever before. Usually manpower constraints factor into the agencies ability to do that, though.

 

[divemedic]

When they drive around in APC's, carry machine guns, wear military uniforms, and conduct missions that look more like commando raids than law enforcement, they are militarized.

Maybe the equipment doesn't reflect the job. Perhaps the way they do the job has changed to reflect they are equipped. Can you imagine Sheriff Taylor conducting a no knock raid on Otis?

 

[tc556guy]

You have it all wrong; their equipment has finally caught up to the job they've been doing. Andy Taylor was a fictional TC charecter with no connection at all to real life. Stop taking your cues from 40 year old TV programs.

 

[Dust Monkey]

when you dress like soldiers, speak like soldiers , act like soldiers and think of youself as not being civilians, you THINK that you are military. And I must disagree with you on the "us vs. Them". People used to respect, admire and want to aid peace officers. They dont now because those few, isolated incidents you speak of are not so few and isolated.

 

[Erik]

"So, as we can see, definitions do change over time. The results of the current definition are probably a combination of both the police usage and the citizens usage - It's a chicken and egg question."

Indeed, and I should say has more than a little bit to do with the substantial numbers of former military personnel in the ranks of the governmental entities; law enforcement agencies in particular, and emergency responder agencies in general.

 

[tc556guy]

First of all, the "civilian" thing is overblown. Its an easy way for officers to distinguish between people on the job and people not on the job. Will you similarly claim that 80 years ago Vaudeville performers were militaristic because they called anyone who was not a performer a "civilian" ( they did, BTW) ?

Like it or not, the appearance thing is a mark of a professonal. Doesn't matter whether its military or police. Perhaps you want police officers to be unkempt and slovenly?

People still think highly of officers. Ask any officer fresh out of police basic whether the divide started with them or their family and friends. They'll tell you it certainly started with others. So its not something the officers started. Have you gone out of your way to establish contacts/ friendships within your local agencies? If not, you've just proven what I just said.......

 

[divemedic]

Would you explain to me why an urban SWAT team needs to wear military BDU's, many of them in Woodland Camo? In the city, will the bad guy want to know why that bush is holding a machine gun and wearing an assault vest?

They can still appear professional and not look like soldiers. They did it for a couple of hundred years, why the change now?

Does this reflect what you want to see? A 300 pound wannabe playing soldier?

Professor Peter Kraska, an expert on police militarization from Eastern Kentucky University, says that in the 1980s there were about 3,000 Swat team deployments annually across the US, but says now there are at least 40,000 per year.

But Dr Kraska sees such initiatives as reflecting a changing culture of police work.

"These elite units are highly culturally appealing to certain sections of the police community. They like it, they enjoy it," he says.

"The chance to strap on a vest, grab a semi-automatic weapon and go out on a mission is for some people an exciting reason to join - even if policing as a profession can - and should - be boring for much of the time.

"The problem is that when you talk about the war on this and the war on that, and police officers see themselves as soldiers, then the civilian becomes the enemy."