Point shooting

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7677

New member
It was my badge number when I signed up at the first gun forum.

I agree with you about some of the distances talked about in this thread are further then I take a shot with point shooting. I look at point shooting to be a close quarters tactic and I teach my students to transition to the sights between the 7 to 10 yard mark. Although I have hit people at further then 10 yards on the move, I have found the 30 foot mark (10 yards) to be most student's limit (stationary) and past this distance the groups tend to open up and the missing starts. On the move, 7 yards is most student's limit. To make it past this point takes a lot of work.

The following link is a review of a class Matt and I put on for a local PD:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=296253
 
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Night Watch

New member
Yup! Makes perfect sense to me. :)

I regularly practice at 10 and 12 yards. My reasoning is that most opponents won't be comfortable opening up on me at this distance. I use sighted, rapid fire. Haven't been doing it lately; but, when I'm firing 1,000 to 1,500 rounds a month this is the best I can do at 16 yards, rapid:

1Rapid16YardTarget.jpg


Here's 7 1/2 yards, sighted, rapid. Regular practice or not I can do this all day long, everyday of the week:

2_10sRapid7.jpg


Here's two examples of the best 8 yard point shooting that I'm capable of. I don't, ever, see myself getting any better than this - At least not at point shooting!

2_Rapid8.jpg


(I think these targets are pretty good; most of my shooting acquaintances don't do as well; but, a few more threads like this; and, I'll be ready to reapply for my marksmanship merit badge; and, this is after a lifetime of doing this sort of thing!) ;)
 
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leadbutt

New member
Guys don't get hung up on my 75 yard remark,,it was a training thing Mr.Bryce and the Col would show me and make me do just to prove a point.

"PS" Is for the quick and the dead distance,just IMO but nothing further than "lips to 12 yards" or so,any thing past that and most if not all will have transitioned to a form of sight fire.
 
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DGindlesperger

New member
i'm thinking to myself......point shooting....Then thinking.....I Draw, point at target looking down the front sight and fire for Bianci cup and IPSC SHOOTS. So what is the difference ? Both type of shoots require fast shooting with out alot of aim time, yet being accurate. Only difference in the two is action pistol counts down to little your shooting time and IPSC uses a timer to see who is fastest, (well there are other differences like running but not needed for this thread)
 
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threegun

Moderator
The difference is between fast and real fast. Sometimes the situation might require a real fast release of lead. The extra tenths required to raise the gun to the eye could be trouble.

Point shooting is also a necessity when gun retention is needed or possibly when defending against a knife or bunt trauma weapon.
 
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Night Watch

New member
The difference is between fast and real fast. Sometimes the situation might require a real fast release of lead. The extra tenths required to raise the gun to the eye could be trouble.
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:rolleyes: Sounds like the old adage to; 'Just throw the first one at the target!'

(Which is exactly what many cop-shooting criminals have confessed to doing in the most recent 2007 FBI report on, 'Criminal Use of Guns'.)

Force Science Research
 
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7677

New member
Point shooting gives me the ability to move dynamically and to be able to shoot at any point in my draw stroke and to continue to fire through it. Throwing one at the bad guy is not a new trend as Fairbairn talked about this in the 1930's.

The common technique is to draw and immediately rotate the weapon towards the target and fire. When things heat up and the shooter becomes rushed, the first round hitting the deck is common.

This is why I've gone to the Elbow UP/ Elbow Down technique (EU/ED) that Dave James was taught. With EU/ED the elbow comes up and then down into the side (ribs) and when the elbow hits the side the shooter fires their gun.
 
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Night Watch

New member
The common technique is to draw and immediately rotate the weapon towards the target and fire. When things heat up and the shooter becomes rushed, the first round hitting the deck is common.
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:eek: Yeah, that's got to be good for a few misses!

Me? As, 'dated' as I am, I'm almost pure Fairbairn. (Cause that's how I learned!) I do tuck my elbow into my side; but I, also, 'vertically index' the entire pistol. When I'm trying to shoot fast I never swing the gun in a sideways arc - There's too much side-to-side latitude; and that's likely to cause a miss.

Instead, I line up vertically on the target by pointing the entire gun downward, 'at or between the feet'; then, with a slight forward push, I raise the barrel and fire. The probability of me hitting, COM, with the first shot has always been high.





PS: If I should, ever, put the first shot into the ground so that I can see where it hit, then, the second and third shots will be dead center! ;)
 
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biere

New member
I had sweatnbullets as an instructor this past spring in east tn and I learned point shooting as well as learning that my 1911s need to be run wet compared to the glocks I owned in the past.

One thing I asked sweatnbullets about his glock 17 was if the grip angle change from 1911s messed up his point shooting. As I recall his answer was something along the lines of, "Nothing a trip to the desert with some ammo could not fix."

So for those comments wondering about grip angle I do think it matters. You need to know your firearm and I only practice with my 1911s since changing grip angles means I need to practice too much with other stuff and I don't have enough time to practice as it stands right now.

I am not about to say I would use point shooting for long shots, but during the course we pushed what we thought our distance limitations were and found out point shooting works and the more you use it the farther you can push your limitations.

I think the best point of point shooting, mostly elbow up and elbow down, is that the firearm remains close to my body.

I know anyone can learn it since I walked into that class having never taken a serious gun class and I was quickly putting rounds on target and doing so reliably in acceptable groups. Not one hole groups, but all center of mass groups.

Best 1100 or so rounds of ammo I ever used up.
 
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Sweatnbullets

New member
I had sweatnbullets as an instructor this past spring in east tn and I learned point shooting as well as learning that my 1911s need to be run wet compared to the glocks I owned in the past.
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There may be a case of mistaken idenity or mistaken internet handle here.

My name is Roger Phillips. You probably trained with a former partner in Tennesse. We worked together for a very short time period, so the mistake is easily made.

I work with Gabe Suarez now, which is a very natural fit since we have been sharing information for over five years. What I teach is a course that has come together with the input of 7677, Gabe Suarez, Matt Temkin, Dave James (leadbutt) and myself.

One thing I asked sweatnbullets about his glock 17 was if the grip angle change from 1911s messed up his point shooting. As I recall his answer was something along the lines of, "Nothing a trip to the desert with some ammo could not fix."
Click to expand...

Grip angle is as simple as knowing "parallel to the ground. " You should be able to pick up any firearm that you own and know where parallel the ground is. It does not even require going to the desert. Just a full length mirror and the desire to know it...... as soon as the gun hits your hand.;)

I think the best point of point shooting, mostly elbow up and elbow down, is that the firearm remains close to my body.
Click to expand...

Elbow up/elbow down came to us from Dave James (leadbutt.) He is the man in the background that gives us a direct connection to some of the most deadly men to ever carry a gun for a living. The course that you saw in Tennesse is a direct result from a team effort of 7677, Matt Temkin, Dave James, brownie, and myself.

This is just a clarification.....I do not want to receive credit for a course that I did not instruct in. Although, I was part of the curriculum development (as well as those mentioned above.):)
 
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matthew temkin

Moderator
It is true that grip angle affects pointability.
Probably the best gun for this is the Luger, although few other guns have such an angle.
Which is why Applegate insisted upon the low ready and vertical lift, since even with a poorly balanced gun you will shoot where you look.
PS to Nightwatch..I would be very interested to hear about your training in the Fairbairn system.
A lot of old times have learned it but many are not so available to talk about it.
Please PM me if you prefer.
 
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biere

New member
Well since we don't use real names I guess it is rather easy to make mistakes on the internet.

I had Brownie for an instructor in the knoxville area this past spring.

Sorry for any confusion my mistake caused.

I agree that parallel to the ground is easy to pick up, but I used to try to shoot many different types of firearms and I found myself thinking about an awful lot of stuff instead of being able to feel confident I could put rounds on target. So when switching from one type to another type I probably caused my problems.

These days I keep things simple and I find that works best for me.

Anyway, back to the experts on point shooting.
 
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