Point shooting
- Thread starter Groundhog
- Start date
JoeBlackSpade
New member
Point shooting can be developed to within the maximum effective range of the weapon employed, out to the individual's ability to resolve (i.e. visually identify and distinguish) a target. For most handguns and people that's probably no more than 25 to 35 meters.
One example would be a skeet shooter who uses "kentucky windage" to lead a clay across the sky, using nothing but instinct that has developed out of practice.
There are communities of shooters that point shoot under simulated stress (i.e., smoke, noise & time constraints) on steel targets, using handguns, at ranges of 20 meters on a daily basis.
There's no precise answer to this, but I would give my opinion that it is limited to the realm of handguns and shotguns, or small assault weapons that are being used in extremely close ranges (12 meters or less).
One example would be a skeet shooter who uses "kentucky windage" to lead a clay across the sky, using nothing but instinct that has developed out of practice.
There are communities of shooters that point shoot under simulated stress (i.e., smoke, noise & time constraints) on steel targets, using handguns, at ranges of 20 meters on a daily basis.
There's no precise answer to this, but I would give my opinion that it is limited to the realm of handguns and shotguns, or small assault weapons that are being used in extremely close ranges (12 meters or less).
tony pasley
New member
You set your distances. I point shoot mostly up to 25' then front site after that. That is what I do but what you do is up to you.
Sweatnbullets
New member
The average gun fight, 3 shots, 3 second, 3 feet.
Point shooting is all about five main things.
(1) When you are behind in the reactionary curve
(2) in low light
(3) with dynamic movement
(4) with the integration of H2H
(5) for those with physical limitations
You are looking for combat accuracy at typical gun fighting distances. From 6 feet to 21 feet is where you need to work. Combat accuracy can be a 9"-11" piece of paper or a nine inch paper plate. We are still looking for the balance of speed and accuracy. That is the speed of the draw, speed of the shots, and speed of the movement.
You should look for a seamless integration of sighted and unsighted fire, into one simply shooting concept. You should know exactly what you need to see to make the hits at each distance with the necessary movement.
Point shooting is all about five main things.
(1) When you are behind in the reactionary curve
(2) in low light
(3) with dynamic movement
(4) with the integration of H2H
(5) for those with physical limitations
You are looking for combat accuracy at typical gun fighting distances. From 6 feet to 21 feet is where you need to work. Combat accuracy can be a 9"-11" piece of paper or a nine inch paper plate. We are still looking for the balance of speed and accuracy. That is the speed of the draw, speed of the shots, and speed of the movement.
You should look for a seamless integration of sighted and unsighted fire, into one simply shooting concept. You should know exactly what you need to see to make the hits at each distance with the necessary movement.
matthew temkin
Moderator
Point shooting with the gun at chin/nose level is accurate out to 50 feet or so.
At that distance I would prefer to use aimed fire from behind cover, but point shooting is still an option.
At that distance I would prefer to use aimed fire from behind cover, but point shooting is still an option.
Wow. some of you guys are either incredibly talented, full of crap, or don't understand what point shooting is.
To instinctively point and shoot without aimed fire and consistantly hit a target center mass at 25+ meters? I don't believe that skill level is commonly attainable.
I shoot alot, and am on my unit's competetive shooting team. I wouldn't engage a man beyond about 10 M and expect to hit him with an incapacitating shot.
Suppressive fire and a lucky shot is another thing, and that has its place in a gunfight, mostly as a way to throw off our opponents aim until you can get behind cover and/or increases distance.
The question wasn't about that though, it asked about point shooting accurately.
35 meters? come on. I can make head shots at that distance pretty consistantly with carefully aimed fire, but even that is beyond the capabilities of most shooters without a great deal of practice. I would have to see someone do it by point shooting to believe it, and even then I would believe that only the rarest of highly trained and talented shooters would be capable of it.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but the BS gets thick sometimes and I gotta say something when I see something that looks too far off base..
To instinctively point and shoot without aimed fire and consistantly hit a target center mass at 25+ meters? I don't believe that skill level is commonly attainable.
I shoot alot, and am on my unit's competetive shooting team. I wouldn't engage a man beyond about 10 M and expect to hit him with an incapacitating shot.
Suppressive fire and a lucky shot is another thing, and that has its place in a gunfight, mostly as a way to throw off our opponents aim until you can get behind cover and/or increases distance.
The question wasn't about that though, it asked about point shooting accurately.
35 meters? come on. I can make head shots at that distance pretty consistantly with carefully aimed fire, but even that is beyond the capabilities of most shooters without a great deal of practice. I would have to see someone do it by point shooting to believe it, and even then I would believe that only the rarest of highly trained and talented shooters would be capable of it.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but the BS gets thick sometimes and I gotta say something when I see something that looks too far off base..
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ISC, When I do drills on point shooting I don't really worry to much on distance, I go by what I (myself) would encounter in my normal life and/or course of duty. To be honest most of mine are done in the 3-5 foot range. I do other ranges, but I focus on what I would realistically use.
Since I live in the city most of my scenarios are in the city type of setting.
I have to agree with you on the 35m range, I would not be point shooting at that range.
John
Since I live in the city most of my scenarios are in the city type of setting.
I have to agree with you on the 35m range, I would not be point shooting at that range.
John
JoeBlackSpade
New member
ISC, the thread says nothing about accuracy in a self defense situation. As I understood it, the OP could be about plinking steel targets, perhaps at different ranges, under a time limit. If he wants to set up a range for that, his most distant targets (the bonus points, for example) would be at the maximum effective range of his weapon. For a 1911 Model.45, that's around 27 meters. I'd round it down to 25 and call it a day. The rest of my steel targets would be positioned from 2 meters, on out.
In NO WAY was I suggesting that point shooting is the best way to engage targets at 25 to 35 meters, only that this is likely the MAXIMUM distance anyone should be placing their targets. Most schools appear to utilize targets from 2 to 9 meters when working up Point Shooting skills, and advanced courses go a little further out.
Notice the last sentence in my post:
"it is limited to the realm of handguns and shotguns, or small assault weapons that are being used in extremely close ranges (12 meters or less)."
Point Shooting isn't about quarter sized groups. It's about hit or miss.
True "technical" point shooting is using the index finger along the slide, and using the middle finger to squeeze the trigger instead. The weapon is held slightly below true sight-alignment/sight picture, and both eyes are typically fully open. Accuracy here is a combination of training, muscle memory and instinct, while using the extended index finger to "point" at your target.
In NO WAY was I suggesting that point shooting is the best way to engage targets at 25 to 35 meters, only that this is likely the MAXIMUM distance anyone should be placing their targets. Most schools appear to utilize targets from 2 to 9 meters when working up Point Shooting skills, and advanced courses go a little further out.
Notice the last sentence in my post:
"it is limited to the realm of handguns and shotguns, or small assault weapons that are being used in extremely close ranges (12 meters or less)."
Point Shooting isn't about quarter sized groups. It's about hit or miss.
True "technical" point shooting is using the index finger along the slide, and using the middle finger to squeeze the trigger instead. The weapon is held slightly below true sight-alignment/sight picture, and both eyes are typically fully open. Accuracy here is a combination of training, muscle memory and instinct, while using the extended index finger to "point" at your target.
JoeBlackSpade
New member
We have a resident expert here at The Firing Line, one of the Suarez boys, who run Suarez International.
Maybe he can offer up some more insight.
Maybe he can offer up some more insight.
Rob Pincus
New member
Groundhog,
Understanding the limitations (or capabilities, depending on your point of view) of unisighted fire is an integral part of the Combat Focus Shooting program. One of the hardest things to teach students is the fact that there is no objective skill standard. Every person is an individual with their own abilities, different weapons, etc.... You should try to determine how fast and accurate you can be under as many realistic defensive shooting conditions as you can simulate and then try to get faster by improving efficiency and increasing consistency in your mechanics.
Relying on a demonstrator, world class athletic shooter or anyone's opinion to set your standard is counter-productive in the long run. What can help is getting a good set of instructor eyes watching you shoot to point out where you can gain efficiency or improve your mechanics.
Understanding the Balance Between Speed & Precision and how much Deviation Control (including relying on the sights) you need for any given shot is something that comes from training and repeated exposure to a variety of circumstances... that is what will turn you into an intuitive shooter, sighted or not as appropriate to the circumstances.
-RJP
Understanding the limitations (or capabilities, depending on your point of view) of unisighted fire is an integral part of the Combat Focus Shooting program. One of the hardest things to teach students is the fact that there is no objective skill standard. Every person is an individual with their own abilities, different weapons, etc.... You should try to determine how fast and accurate you can be under as many realistic defensive shooting conditions as you can simulate and then try to get faster by improving efficiency and increasing consistency in your mechanics.
Relying on a demonstrator, world class athletic shooter or anyone's opinion to set your standard is counter-productive in the long run. What can help is getting a good set of instructor eyes watching you shoot to point out where you can gain efficiency or improve your mechanics.
Understanding the Balance Between Speed & Precision and how much Deviation Control (including relying on the sights) you need for any given shot is something that comes from training and repeated exposure to a variety of circumstances... that is what will turn you into an intuitive shooter, sighted or not as appropriate to the circumstances.
-RJP
David Armstrong
Moderator
I don't know about common, as that is far enough that sight-focused firing should be used in most circumstances, but having said that, my wife, daughter, and myself regularly hit the 12" plate at 25 yards using target focus with handguns after warming up and I've seen lots of folks that could do it with a little work. I do consider it as much a stunt as an essential skill, however, and certainly wouldn't bet my life on it unless there was no other option. For consistent, first cold shot out of the holster accuracy, I'd figure probably 10 yards max. With a rifle, though, 25 yard snapshots/target focused shots were the norm with most of the folks I trained with.
I believe that the situation or as SweatnBullets puts it, your position in the reactionary curve, is what dictates what type of shooting you go to. Distance isn't as relivant IMO. I can make very fast combat hits at 3 yards from the high hip without a problem. Still if I'm ahead in the reactionary curve I'm gonna use my sights. At a distance say 7 yards I can still make good combat hits from the high hip pretty fast. Again if I'm ahead I'm aiming.
To answer your question. I accept what ever range I can make combat hits at with regularity. For me point shooting is only to be done when behind in the reactionary curve or when speed is more necessary than presice accuracy. I tend to focus my practice from contact range to 7 yards nowadays.
To answer your question. I accept what ever range I can make combat hits at with regularity. For me point shooting is only to be done when behind in the reactionary curve or when speed is more necessary than presice accuracy. I tend to focus my practice from contact range to 7 yards nowadays.
Sweatnbullets
New member
Thanks for the kind words, but let's make sure that credit goes where it should. We have three experts here including Matt Temkin and Rob Pincus.
This all comes down to the context of the training. I mentioned self defense training above and laid down what I felt the guide lines were for that context. But there is a different context to point shooting. Let's face it, point shooting can be just plain fun.
For fun, I see nothing wrong with pushing the limitations and seeing what is possible.
One thing that is a bit of a pet peeve of mine is the correct terminology. To me (and your mileage may vary) Point shooting is what was taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate in "Shooting to Live" and "Killed or get Killed." This covers one handed from the hip... all the way to line of sight...also two handed at line of sight. This method uses the universally accepted grip on the handgun (you pull the trigger with the index finger.)
Point and shoot (P&S) is a term given to a system that is advocated by one John Viet. As far as I know he is the only guy who advocates pulling the trigger with the middle finger. Once again he calls this method "point and shoot."
Point shooting is done with the same universally accepted grip as everyone else.
Sweatnbullets
New member
Sorry Dave.......we have four experts here....and Dave Armstrong would be one.
It must be a coincidence that the Outdoor Channel's "Shooting Gallery" show featured basic instruction and explanation of point shooting. Michael Janich was amazing but he is focused an the practical aspect of never having to shoot beyond 7 yards (since the likelihood of shooting someone beyond 21 feet in your house is slim). He showed a few different stances, methods and hints.
http://www.shootinggallery.tv/
http://www.shootinggallery.tv/
Point shooting has won handgun battles for years weather people believe or not, several of the true old timers, s few whom where my mentors survived several battles them selfs.
It has and can be done out to 75 yards, have seen it done by pros, yes it is a skill like any other that must be honed and practiced, if nothing else its this
"JUST ANOTHER TOOL IN THE BOX"
Dave James
It has and can be done out to 75 yards, have seen it done by pros, yes it is a skill like any other that must be honed and practiced, if nothing else its this
"JUST ANOTHER TOOL IN THE BOX"
Dave James
I try to stay proficient with point shooting from the hip within spitting distance (5-8'). From iso I can hit a 6" plate at 25 yards without looking at my sights directly. With a solid target forcus I can kind of see my sights in my peripheral and I can usually get pretty consistant hits. Keeping the gun out of my vision entirely but still extended somewhat I can usually deliver A zone hits at about 7-10 yards. I think there are many different degrees of point shooting and when people are talking about point shooting at 25 yards, they're still aiming to some extent, whether its with a target forcused aim or with a cursory sight picture.
I've found probably my best P.Sing results with the CAR system's high postion which is essentially point shooting from a retention position. I can use this out to 7 yards and deliver sub 3" groups to the body and head, very rapidly.
I've found probably my best P.Sing results with the CAR system's high postion which is essentially point shooting from a retention position. I can use this out to 7 yards and deliver sub 3" groups to the body and head, very rapidly.