Point or Front Sight - let's talk

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Rosco Benson

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I do a fair amount of low-light and no-light practice. Some of the pistols I utilize have night sights and others do not. In no-light use, where you have to use a flashlight to identify your target, it doesn't matter at all. Plain sights show up distinctly against the illuminated target. In low-light use (where one has enough light to identify one's target, but not enough to see plain sights) the night sights offer an advantage. Proper technique calls for one to present the pistol as normal and attempt to see the sights. If one can identify their target but cannot see their (plain) sights, the alignment acheived by one's practiced stance will usually allow for good hits (rememeber, we're talking pretty close ranges). This starts falling apart if one cannot assume one's practiced stance. If one is shooting around cover or in an otherwise cramped or improvised position, one has no "muscle memory" for that position to align one's sights. This is where being able to see the tritium inserts helps greatly.

As to the shooter wasting time trying to see sights which he cannot; One must have the presence of mind to know that characteristics of the weapon being carried. Does it have night sights or not? Is it a Glock or a 1911? Just as soon as one's hand closes around the piece, one should know what he's dealing with. It may not be the best course for the competetive shooter, but it is helpful to train with a variety of weapons. A truly competent shooter ought to be able to give a good account of himself with whatever weapon comes to hand. One might not be able to obtain their first choice in some situations.

Rosco
 

yoni

New member
I think that it is not a question of which but both point and weaver, this centers on time, space issue. When the target is very close and or you have only your gun hand free then engage from point shooting and the space increase between you and the bad guy so does your time, then use sights. But even more important is the 3 rules to remember 1.tactics(not having your head up your 2. cover move to cover as soon as you can 3. shot placement, it doesn't matter to the bad guy if the bullet that killed him was fired weaver,point, or holding the gun upside down and under your leg.
 

SB

New member
I'm late in getting into the game, but I vote for "front" as well. It's the most accurate of the two. When the intensity heats up, I find myself floating towards point anyways. Don't know if this is actually a good thing or not, but I believe in using the front as much as humanly possible.

$.02
 

Dan

New member
I've been reading this thread since it started and believe everyone makes some very valid points. Now for mine. I don't view myself as a proponent of either discipline per say. I practice each technique and feel competent in both. Now I don't have a Special Forces pedigree or am I an LE or have I been to any "name" shooting schools, (I'm an aircraft mechanic and a former green, one ea. Marine). But shooting and handguns are my avocation. I have done much study and experimentation and have come to the conclusion that this topic can be best related to tools. Some like a socket wrench and are better with them than some who prefer a box end wrench who are more efficient with them than a socket wrench.... Get my drift? I feel that there is much variation in humans in coordination, reactions to stress etc... and each senario is vastly different in its dynamics. And that a definitive answer will never be achieved. My goal is to be as proficient as possible with both techniques and with my weapon. Combining this with good situational awerness, god forbid, if I ever have to use my weapon I feel confident that I will have at the very least a fighting chance of survival.

Sorry for the rambling post!
 
At the expense of sounding wishy-washy, I believe in practicing both front sight and point shooting. Here's why:

Contact with a subject is initiated using interview stance which is quite conducive to Weaver. However, when things suddenly go wrong, I created distance by stepping back while drawing. We've all taught or told others to seek cover but when you're in the middle of the sidewalk or in a hallway, there isn't much cover to seek.

In all instances, I noticed that I crouched, adopted the isoceles and brought the gun almost to eye level. My eyes focused on the threat and racing through my head is the thought, "Am I legally and morally justified to shoot?" All this time I'm yelling verbal commands to deescalate the incident. At close proximity, it's virtually impossible to watch the hands of the suspect (especially if they're around the waist area) and keep that front sight on the upper chest (unless you want to gut shoot him).

In searching buildings or where there is time to deploy behind some cover, I favor the Weaver as it affords a very steady hold and provides less exposure of yourself to your opponent. Try slicing the pie with both Weaver and isoceles and you'll see what I mean.

For me, critical in deployment of one technique over another is the time/distance and surprise element (sudden escalation). If afforded the time and distance, therefore no surprises, then Weaver. If sudden and close, isoceles and natural point.

Like I said, both work for me. Just my .02.

[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-16-98).]
 

Ed Brunner

New member
You have to temper this with some reason and good sense rather than trying to force all situations into one discipline.

If you could stick your pistol in his chest would you fire or would you take three steps back and go for the sight picture?

I have no doubt that Rob can do it without the sights. A lot of people including Bill Jordan could do it very well.

Most people cant.Those who can,probably learned to do it by using the sights and then graduating to the eye-hands-pistol relationship to the target.

A good point shooter isnt winging it he is relying on coordination, His brain knows where the pistol is pointed.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 

Harry Humphries

Staff Alumnus
OK let's look at a few facts related to traumatic encounters and revisit the original question.

Without getting involved with mind set and phases of rejection than acceptance towards eventual reaction, we need to be aware of the effects of hormonal or adrenalin dumps to the blood stream.

Most of us go through life with a heart rate of 60 - 80 beats per minute. While exercising or going through physically demanding competition, we'll experience an increase to 115 to 120 bpm. If we're in relatively decent shape we are still capable of mentally and physically performing with all faculties still in tact.

This changes for hormonal induced heart rate increases resulting from sympathetic nervous system arousal. At 115 bpm fine motor skills deteriorate. At 145 bpm complex motor skills deteriorate. At 175 bpm cognitive processing deteriorates accompanied by loss of peripheral vision, loss of depth perception, loss of near vision and auditory exclusion. Above 175 bpm irrational fighting or fleeing, freezing, submissive behavior, vasoconstriction, voiding from bladder and bowels occur, but gross motor skills are heightened to unbelievable levels.

These facts come from Lt. Col Dave Grossman's "The Psychological Preparation for Combat, Killing, and Death." Secondly, short of the voiding of bladder and bowels, I personally have experienced these phenomena at one time or another during combat situations although I was not aware of my specific heart rates. Trust me guys in the real deal things change from the practice range.

Another point of consideration is the work done by Dr. Fackler and other well founded Law Enforcement statistical studies. In general there was corroboration throughout all studies of officer involved shooting incidents within the US. Some 80% occurs within 10 feet, 70% within 7 feet. And almost always in low light situations. The exact percentages may vary from year to year but generally stay in this area. Last but not least is the fact that the successful hit ratio enjoyed by the officers involved is less than 25% more like 19%. Again these numbers close to study results.

Given the above it is safe to say that the shoot will occur within a very close distance, contact to 10 feet, and probably in low light. Further to that, the shooter will be traumatically taken by surprise experiencing a high dose of adrenalin which will essentially shut down his fine and complex motor skills, blind him to peripheral vision and render him temporarily deaf. - Now how do we train?

It is my belief that a sound combat hand gun training program considers the worst possible situation, close in and taken by surprise, it must condition or habituate a reflexive response within the trainee so as to initially deal with this type of encounter while continuing the presentation through to an effective means of delivering accurate shots at allowable distances. Whatever the technique it can not require a time consuming decision process the technique must be universally sound for contact presentation as well as from the comfort of ten to fifteen feet from cover. Folks that train against paper or plate or pin balls must remember that the close in fight has an inherent danger- the targets are charging and grabbing at your gun and are either on mind altering drugs or under the super human strength of the adrenalin cocktail.

The modern technique as developed by Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver, et.al. verses point shooting really doesn't warrant conversation - it works provided the presentation is allowed to be made in full. Thus the presentation should include a retention block during the grip and draw phase while coming on to the full presentation be it to a weaver, modified weaver, isosceles, etc. The front sight is acquired as a flash sight picture as quickly as possible before or after the surprise break. This ladder point is where the point shooters fail to understand the system. While the initial phases of front site discipline instruction requires a look at the front site prior to press, the accomplished modern technique shooter often sees the front sight after the shot as a confirmation of point of aim. Yes one could say that is momentary point shooting but it includes the rapid acquisition of the front sight for the immediate second controlled shot while the point shooter, if truly a point shooter, will not acquire the front site for the rapid execution of the second controlled shot. Especially under stress..

What we habituate through training is what we will do under stress, there is very little thinking or decision processing going on under the traumatic encounter. If one doesn't train a behavior pattern, the debilitating effects of the adrenalin cocktail will cause them to do nothing- just die.
 
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